Is there a Universal Morality?

Question

Where does this idea of absolute "right" or "wrong" come from and what makes it valid?

If you answer from God then consider Socrates question; Is something right simply because God says so (making it only God's opinion and subject to change on a whim) or does God base what is right or wrong on a universal law that is greater than God (suggesting God is not the supreme existence, that something greater than he exists.)

Or is moral right and wrong purely based on social ideologies and cultural beliefs, and if this is the case then wouldn't this suggest that there is no universal morality that exists?

I hear a lot of answers like God's knowledge is infinite and therefore he just "knows" what is right or wrong. But if this is the case, then wouldn't that suggest that there is a law (morality) that exists separate from God's will, and this is where he is drawing his decisions from? And if this is the case then wouldn't this also suggest that this law is greater than God himself? AND if this is the case then God is not the greatest thing in the universe...this law of morality would be, and then we must ask who created this law for this being must be even greater than God AND this law of morality.

Wow Mordy0 I think I've offended you. That was certainly not my purpose. I never said whether I believed there was a universal morality or not I was only posing a question.
And as far as for Socrates question; I never said it was a direct quote however the one you quote IS the exact same question only worded slightly differently. Wouldn't an "inherent benefit" have to constitute something? And wouldn't that something be good or bad? And if so wouldn't this bring us back to defining the origin of good or bad? Thus the question; is good or bad based on God's opinion or something separate from God? I think it is you that does not fully understand Socrates question.

And by the way the question had nothing to do with whether God exists or not it pertained ONLY to the origin of morality.

I pulled out my book of Plato's Euthyphro to get a more precise quote and this is what i found; " Is what is pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved [by the gods]." I also did some research and most scholars I came across see it quit differently than you.
This is from (and there more that say the same) http://www.bookrags.com/Euthyphro. "Essentially, the dilemma faced by Euthyphro is this: If it is maintained that certain actions and dispositions are good simply because God favors them, then it seems that the distinction between good and evil, right and wrong, is purely arbitrary"......" But such a view appears to be inconsistent with the conception of God as the omnipotent creator and sustainer of all that is. It means that there is a realm of moral values which exist quite apart from God's creative will."

To add to this from the same site..."The theist, therefore, appears to be faced with a choice between a view which implies a kind of moral chaos and a life of moral immaturity, and one which belittles an Almighty God. One attempt to resolve this dilemma turns on the distinction between two `aspects' of God's Will, or two ways in which believers think that they come to know what the will of God is. Namely, (a) that which is supposed to be communicated by special revelation, and (b) that which is to be inferred from the conditions under which believers may find individually and collectively happiness and fulfilment in the world."

Lol well let me try and answer your questions. 1st; ,you asked "have you ever read Plato and ever think why is he asking all these meticulous questions,bec hes hiding a deep idea?" I would have to say no I never thought he was hiding a deep idea. I always thought and was told that the whole point of the Socratic method (meticulous questioning) was to find the truth. I don't think Socrates had any hidden deep idea other than questioning everything in order to find the truth or fallacies in someones idea or argument.
2nd; "the question is crazy bec.. nothing can create that which created all. So ethics or morality outside of logically it must be attached to reality," If you are saying that God created everything and that he also created the notion of good and bad, then this leads us right back to where we started. If God created good and bad then he either must have based his creation on "something" or it was just his opinion of what good and bad should have been.

Lastly you asked: "oh, i donut understand why it is if god dictates what good, why that is arbitrary?" It becomes potentially arbitrary because lets say god says eating fruit on Sundays is bad, unless he had some reason or law to base this on then he could have just as easily have said the opposite, in this case it would be only God's opinion.
You also argued that "God set up right and wrong (or our nature) with the most incredible wisdom." Wisdom is usually based on something. We gain wisdom we don't create it. So if God created this universe based on Wisdom then this again imply s that there is something that exists separately from God and in this case must be dictating or influencing his decisions.

Lastly you stated; "But piety is only in mans framework, so if you know this idea then the question makes much more sense in my explanation. Is it pious inherently and this is what god relates to man through or is only pious bec. god said so, and that the only mover of mans piety.
I want to make sure I'm understanding you here so I'll break this down. "Piety is only in mans framework." If God created man, and piety is in mans framework then this would mean that God created this piety in man, correct? If this is the case then that would mean that this piety does exist because God said so, for he created it and put it in man.

And correct me if I'm wrong here but are you saying that it is through piety that we determine what is good and bad? And if God created this piety in man to dictate good and bad then where does this notion of good and bad come from? Because if this is the case then this again brings us back to the question at hand.

Answer 1

ahh,head aches.

Answer 2

The absolute right or wrong comes from the society you grew up in which explains why different societies believe in different things. In the US people need to wear clothes to be accepted but places like Africa used to be free and not wear clothes and this was considered accepting. I actually do not believe in the Christian God but I do believe in a supreme being so some people wouldnt like that im saying that God is not law. Universal morally does exist though. Every culture has to have some sort of dignity for their fellow man or else the culture would die out. Everyone might have slightly different beliefs but most society doesnt kill people for no reason. Society learns how to keep their morals and beliefs in tact but sometimes with different rules.

Answer 3

someone i forget which one (kohlberg or piaget perhaps) found a series of developmental stages with a different sense of morality at each stage. In the early stages the moral laws are very clearcut rules that are very easy to follow - in the later stages they become flexible principles that each person applies in the best way they can.

Each person at a particular time has developed the ability to work with morality at a particular level. If you ask them to work at a lower level they feel like you are interfering with their freedom, and if at a higher level they feel that you are asking them to take too much responsibility so it is important that you allow each person to work with morality at the level they are.

obviously the highest level is simply - do what will have a good outcome. Equally obviously that takes a lot of wisdom to know which action will have the best outcome. But if you talk about god then i would say that is god's moral law - to do what will turn out best, and he should have enough wisdom and insight to tell.

Answer 4

The universal law IS God, and i'll tell you why.

Humans' minds are LIMITED. We are finite, we can't see everything, so we can't base 'morality' on our limited logic.
God, being infinite, has infinite logic and therefore His logic, and sense of morality, is infallible.

Give you an example:
A guy who's lived in the forest for all his live and has never seen civilisation one day walks into an operating theatre. He can't understand the morality in cutting up someone! Because he doesn't know everything, he hasn't seen the full picture. That's like us. This also explains how bad things can happen if god is good. Our perception of 'good' and 'bad' is limited.

Answer 5

Its in human culture. Thousands of years of human morality and law have enbedded in our structure. A human individul with no social influences would behave very animalistic. It takes a newborn many years of parenting to learn morality as we know it. Something as simple as right or wrong is very difficult to know. This might be vary from person to person. It depends on the first experiences with feelings attached to their actions. Like if a person with no knowledge of morality kills someone and enjoys the action. He might not think its wrong, just as animals do when they kill for food. On the same example....If that person gets disgusted by the murder, he will develope a morality for that action.
There might be some genetic code embedded in our dna, but that seems like a stretch. No universal Law.

Answer 6

There have also been multiple study that animals do not. celebration: maximum animals interior the animal kingdom will eat their little ones if push is composed of shove. also there is yet another be conscious for them doing suitable issues vs incorrect issues: instinct. pretend you're a cheetah. See that lion over there? Yeah, you may take him down in all likelihood, feed for a month. yet then there is all those different lions which could come once you and your %.. so that you extra valuable leave that lion to easily sit back and go hunt some gazelles.

Answer 7

Have a look at the way humans are behaving in the world to-day.There has never been more destructive ,greedy ,hate full , hostile ,cruel,selfish ,nasty , money hungry, power crazy people than ever before and this is only the beginning.

This is your answer.

Answer 8

free will gives you the idea and conscience makes it valid.

one can do anything he wants to do and may regard it for himself as the right thing to do. conscience validates it so by the resulting effect where you can sleep tight at night having done so. the opposite will obtain the opposite result.

i think then that universal morality exists and stems from the human free will and conscience. how others may regard your actions would still be then their concern

Answer 9

No, there's not. Everyone's morality is defined by themselves, their parents and upbringing, and by their culture and religion. For example, I'm sure a lot of things that are OK in Japan would be considered obscene and amoral in the US of A.

Answer 10

No. Right and Wrong are points of view, nothing more. Morality is what you hold in your own personal integrity, and that is a changing thing.

Answer 11

The more I learn, the less I believe in any sort of absolute "truth." That doesn't mean that I don't believe in God, because I do; I just don't believe that my way of dealing with things is right for anybody but me.

As to God - who says he changes? :-)