texas hold em rules for moving all in on short stack?

Question

This is the setting....no blinds..4 players..ABCD.... Cards delt. Checks all around table...Flop shown. Player A checks, Player B - goes all in with short stack of just say 500. player C calls as well as Player D. Did Player B moving in on short stack force the remaining players to be stuck with the small pot? Did Betting at that point end?....One player argued that just because Player B went all in...does not mean that the other 3 cant raise and bet their hands between players A. C. and D.....and that all player B would have won ( if she won the hand) is what she went all in with and the called bets. Not the entire pot. HELP! please...our weekly poker game is riding on this answer....

Also a player said she understood the rules to say, after everyone called player B's all in...that 4 players cards must be turned face up and everyone just wait to see what comes out on turn and river...with no more betting

we posted blinds this game...i was mistaken...the previous game we ante'd.

Answer 1

It seems there is some confusion going on at your card game!

It's hard to answer without taking into account blinds, because they are a required integral part of the game. You cannot play Texas Hold'em without them, it is part of the rules that they exist.

But let's pretend you were actually playing a made up version of the game with no blinds.

So there is no money in the pot on the flop, because everyone checked and there were no blinds.

Player A checks.
Player B moves all in for $500.

At this point player C, D and A have the option to fold, call or raise. A valid raise must be at least the previous bet, in this case $500. So if player C calls the $500, and player D has $2000 in his stack he could move all in, or simply raise $1000 if he wants to, call or fold.

The important thing to know here is that even if there is further betting, or raising the most money that player B can win is $500 from each player, since $500 is all he put in the pot. So if everyone calls there will be $2000 in the main pot. If player C raises to $1000, player D reraises to $3000 and player A folds, the maximum player B can win is $1500. That's his $500, and then $500 from player C and D. You can never win more than what you bet from each player.

So in this example let's say that player C calls player D, by putting another $2000 out. The main pot is now $1500, and this can be won by players B, C and D. The extra money they bet goes into what is called a side pot. So since they both ended up betting $3000, the side pot would contain $5000. $2500 from each of them, and their other $500 was in the main pot.

Play now continues to the turn and river. Players C and D who are still in the hand may continue to bet, raise, re-raise, call, check or fold. Any money they bet will continue to go into the side pot.

If both C and D are still in the pot after betting has finished after the river, the showdown happens. Player C and D will show their cards at this point, and the best hand will take the side pot. Next player B will show his cards. If he can beat the person who just won the side pot he will win the main pot of $1500. If he cannot, the person that won the side pot will also win the main pot.

In your question, there were some common misconceptions, especially from your friend. The only time cards are turned up is when everyone still in the hand is all in and therefore no further betting is possible. The only other time cards are turned up is at the end, like in the above example. And in the above example player B would never turn up his cards until all other betting had finished.

Also as another scenario with the above example, if player B moved all in on the flop, and player C raised to $2000 and player D moved all in for $10,000. Player A and C can now fold. In which case there is still a side pot and a main pot. The main pot contains $500 from B, C and D. Player C folded so the remaining $1500 of the $2000 bet is considered the side pot. Since everyone folded to D, he wins that side pot, which is his own money back $9500, and $1500 of the bet from player C. $500 of the bet from C stays in the main pot and $500 of the big all in bet from D stays in the main pot too. So at that point with all players out except B and D, and with B all in, players B and D will turn over their cards and the turn and river will be dealt. The best hand out of B and D will win the $1500 in the main pot.

Quite honestly, side pots can be one of he most complex things to learn about poker (if you ignore strategy and all that good stuff). In terms of the mechanics of the game, it can be tough to figure. But always remember that no player can ever win more than he puts into the pot from each player. So the best that player B can ever hope for is $500 from each player who stays in, plus the blinds.

Speaking of the blinds, you need to start using blinds in your game, or you will make the game completely boring. With just four players and no blinds, you will shuffle, deal, and everyone folds. Why get involved in a pot if there is no money to win? But if there is a small and big blind to win, it forces a bit more gambling, which makes the game more interesting.

I hope that was all fairly easy to follow. It is really tough to explain side pots and multiple side pots. But the main thing to know is that your friend was completely wrong, and no version of poker is played in the way she described.

I've found you some links that may help clarify what I said.

Answer 2

First of all in a game of hold em poker there has to be blind involved. Blinds force action from the players, otherwise they would just sit and wait for aces all day long. But if a short stack goes all in then the other players have the option to re-raise in most situations. All that would happen is that a side pot would be created and all other bets would go into the side. You just can't win more chips then you have at any given time. There are some situations where you may only call the bet, because its is less then half a bet in limit games or it may not be a full raise in a no limit game, but for the most part you can re-raise if someone goes all in. As an example the player with 500 goes all in, and the next player re-raises it to 1500, and a third player calls. You would take 500 chips from each player and put it in the main pot, all remain money goes into a side pot that only the 2 remaining hands can win, so the best of the two hands left gets the side pot, and the player who is all in can only win the main pot since he did not have enough chips to call the re-raise.

Answer 3

You didn't mention what the limits are, or if no limit what the minimum bet is (this is usually determined by the blinds ... playing without blinds is a bit odd). I'm going to assume the game is no limit and Player Bs bet is more than the minimum (if there is one). If that's not the case, some details below change, but the general concepts remain the same.

On the flop:
After Player B goes all in, Players C and D have the normal option of fold, call, or raise. If they raise, the 500 that is calling Player Bs bet goes into the "main pot", and the rest goes into a side pot. If check-raising is allowed (it is in most games), Player A would also have the option to fold, call, or raise. In some games, if Player Bs all-in bet is less than the minimum (or half the minimum), Player A would not be allowed to raise. (we'll say everyone just calls)

On the Turn:
Player B is all in, so he just sits quietly and watches. The rest of the players may check or bet (and raise) as usual with the chips going into the side pot. To make this a complete example, let's say on the turn Player A goes all in and C and D call (these chips go into side pot #1).

On the River:
Player C bets, D raises, and C calls. Since Player A was all-in on the turn, these chips go into a 2nd side pot.

First, there is a showdown between C and D. Whoever has the better hand (let's say D) takes the 2nd side pot. Since D is better than C, Player C's hand is mucked.

Now there is a showdown between D and A. The better hand (let's say A) takes the 1st side pot.

Finally, there si a showdown between A and B with the winner taking the main pot (500x4 = 2000 chips all put in on the flop).

The only time cards are turned face up is if everyone (or at least all but 1 player) who still has cards is all in. Otherwise all cards remain face down since the 2+ players who still have chips can still bet against each other.

In some games, even if everyone is all in, it is up to the players to decide if/when to show their cards. On TV they always show right away because it is more exciting. In many tournaments they require it as well, but in most cash games I've played in, a player can muck their hand face down if they know they can't win.

Answer 4

If a player goes all in with a short stack, the other players can still place bets between each other. A side pot is formed when this happens, and betting continues normally. If player B wins the pot, she will only win the side pot, matching what she bet, she does not win the entire pot. The rest of the chips goes to the player with the next best hand.
The only time players show their cards is when there is no more possibility of betting when someone goes all in.
Hope that makes sense.

Answer 5

You cannot play texas holdem without blinds. Assuming that you are playing no limit texas holdem, the other players can call and raise unless it is a heads up game. If the person with the short stack has the best hand, he receives the portion of the pot that is equal to his all in bet x the number of calls that are equivalent to his all in call & the player who has the second best hand would then get the remainder of the pot.