Why do people cling to Dominance Theory when it has been discredited by dog behavior authorities?

Question

Dominance theory goes back to a faulty study of captive wolves (not a pack, which is a family unit)

Today's professionals in the dog behavior theory don't follow it as a model for our domestic dog behavior.

Things that evolved from dominance theory: The alpha Roll.
*studies of domestic dogs show that not only does the Alpha NOT roll the subordinate dogs, but that dogs that physically try to dominate other dogs are bullies and get put in their place, which is always low.

That silliness about going through doorways first.
*even in wolf packs, the leader isn't always first. It certainly is true in human culture, such as the military. The leaders stay behind and send the grunts into the mouth of the cannon.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.showdogs.co.za/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL&type=printable
http://tinyurl.com/2oqxe2
http://tinyurl.com/2qzc64

Unfortunately, Cesar Millan didn't start this. Dominance stuff was around long before Cesar crept over the border in the trunk of a '57 Chevy. He is just resurrecting an outmoded and disproven theory of dog management and wrapping it all up in made up and mystical language.

Dominance theory was dying out, though, before the Cesar Millan phenomenon.

shermynewstart, um, yes, I have dogs. And I've had several dogs. And I've helped hundreds of people train their dogs using positive reinforcement. And I've rehabilitated aggressive dogs using positive reinforcement. And I've studied dogs and read extensively about dogs and behavior. And I gave up a desk job to buy a Dog Day Care and Training Facility to live and breathe dogs 24/7.

Hey, I can get 50+ dogs to all magically get along together in a big room together. Wow, I must be a Dog Whisperer, too. :-)

Wow. At no point did I say anything about treating dogs like "little fur babies".
And do you really believe you can't establish control without having to "roll" your dog on its side? That's sad.

My dogs know I am the leader. A good leader is in control of the resources. A good leader provides for the safety and security of those they lead.

My Golden Retriever let a dog bark at her, because she knew I would keep her safe.

My Pitbull runs off leash in Agility, not because I rolled her to show her I was boss, but because we have a working relationship.

In the dog world, ONLY the wannabees use physical domination. So when you roll your dog, you are telling her you aren't confident. You are also saying, you aren't to be trusted because you do scary things to her.

Answer 1

I think people can't change because if they acknowledged Positive Reinforcement works better, they'd also have to admit they've been abusing their beloved dogs for years.

It is only domestic animals we train using force. The exotics, whales, dolphins, rats, ferrets, mice, etc. won't work if you try force. Heck, the marine mammals will drag you to the bottom of the tank and hold you there if they have a problem with the training.

Look at elephants? How many of them have killed their trainers, the trainers that used force based methods.
I like to watch Cesar with the sound off. Even a rudimentary student of dog body language can tell those dogs are scared to death of him.

I want my dogs (Obedience titles, Agility, Therapy dogs, Dock jumping dogs) to work with me, in a partnership. I don't want them to be afraid of me.

Answer 2

Dogs within a pack do have a hierachy that will include an alpha dog if the pack has suitable members can have 2 an alpha male and female, and yes in some cases an alpha roll is used by a "true" alpha but rarely more than once, the alpha dog(s) leads by respect not intimidation, and will rarely correct another with in a force using physical force.

And power in a pack is not absolute power the alpha does not alway eat first demand attention first , walk thru the door first etc , it may be certain things are not feel is important so they may allow a more rambunctious energietic junior member to go out the door first and that is how they earn the respect of the junior member.
In a smooth running pack a young pup is often given a lot of leeway and tolerance and rarely ever harshly disciplined, even bouncy energetic omega dogs will be allowed to play rough with the alphas such as nipping and it will be tolerated even if they accidently grab with their teeth a spot that causes pain the offender may be given a vocal rebuke but won't be punished physically because the alpha feels secure in their position so does not need to apply force.

Disciplanary training methods involve intimidation but do not gain respect of the dog and is therefore unnatural as far a being a leader and a dog may end up viewing you as the wanna be alpha(the dog that is just a bully but lack true leader ship skills) and there not be as responsive since they do not view you as a fair leader deserving of their respect so ineffect can cause behaviour problems in the more confident dog
whereas positive training method are more similiar. Therfore id the less effective training method

Answer 3

Being the alpha roll for my dogs works for them. And I don't have to grab them by the scruff to make them see that I am Alpha either. Just simple obiendence training can show your dog that you are alpha. Dog pack, just like wolf packs, go by structrue. They both need Alpha rolls to run the pack. If, say 2 males, in a pack get into a dispute, you will notice the more dominant one will roll the other onto its' back. That is his way of showing his dominance. Just watch a pack, there are lots of way they show dominace without any aggression. Just making your dog sit before giving them their food is a way to show that you are the dominant one. Our dogs, in how they run their pack is NO different from a wolf pack. The only difference is that dogs are domesticated. But they still need the structure of a pack and a good strong pack leader. _________________________________ Loki_Wolfchild if you don't mind could you please contact me privately? Your answer and technique are great and I have a person question for you about being alpha. That is if you don't mind! ;o) My email is on my home page to yahoo answers.

Answer 4

I have raised numerous dogs and I have found especially in my Rott and my Akita mix that if you were not the one in control of their behavior they would take advantage of you. My rott had a dominance issue and when she did something wrong I would roll her on her side. Once I established I was dominant over her you couldn't ask for a better dog. She is not afraid of me and respects me and my family. She knows what is and isn't allowed. Even in domestic dogs this applies. It is also the same with horses and other animals. And yes you can do the same to a subordinate dog. That's how I got my Rat Terrier to stop jumping on my couch.

Answer 5

So go talk with Cesar Millian. He's the one who started all this stuff.
P,S,
He has revived this type of training. I dont agree with him or his ways. I have never heard of being a pack leader in all my years of training my dogs until he hit the scene. If your points are valid then it is those who follow this training you need to contact. Every trainer has his or her ways of doing things. Some work some dont.

Answer 6

hmmmm i think a better question is why do u think dogs should be treated like human fur babies and not the dogs they are?
YOU SAID "It certainly is true in human culture, such as the military. The leaders stay behind and send the grunts into the mouth of the cannon."

the thing on going out the door first and keeping a dog at a heel is the point if the dog is by ur side u have more control over it...then letting it deside where U go bouncing around like an idoit on one of those extending leashes.

dog are wolves they come from wolves and our breeding them to get what we want has changed them in ways.....but when it comes down to it dogs are wolves....if left to roam they will form packs like wolves roll to back to show submission to other dogs. and hunt like wolves. so to me DOG=WOLF...

I love my dogs as dogs it does not mean i love them less....but they are not humans....time outs don't work scolding and talking to the about will not work...and training with a clicker..is well just gay.

EDIT:
maybe i asumed to much...but for most ppl who started outlike u did it are all about them being human and not dogs.

Nor did i say I had to roll MY dogs.

have you ever dealt with a dog that has aggression problem?
its not pretty when a dog u take in tries to attack u for the simiple reach of a collar. i have taken in many strays well before cesar was on TV that had to be put very few to their side NOT in an abusive manor...If i had back down that dog would have laid in to me then and again later....his fate? the shelter would put him down... instead he's in a wonderful home with a kids living the good life that he'd missed out on for some time.
..backing down from a dog attacking inforces the mental thought if i do this it causes human to stay back...i get to do what i want. there is a differnce in doing it outta anger and just doing what ur instinicts tell u. Anger should never be used to correct a dog..or anything for that matter.

I do not Put my dogs down never had to I trained them and oh yes they can be off leash, my 4 year old daughter can walk them both, and i am working on getting them to go to nursing homes...I was leader the second they came home as pups...

However dogs that have major aggression problems where not taught human is leader...and yes MOST can be taught through proper leash training. I am a believer in the choke chain it DOES NOT hurt a dog when used correctly.

Some however it goes deeper..either from abuse or no training...or my favorite being afraid or ur aggressive dog...and backing down. because he growled at u and snapped(when its ur fault in the first place).

So for the most part it is my understanding the dogs cesar deals with would be put down had he not stepped in..they are red zone cases. they are either human aggressive or dog aggressive. thier owners are at the end of their ropes....and yet it always goes back to the owners...and no training...or exersize....

So the real problem with dogs is not how they are trained....that they have no training from puppyhood. when leader seen as u because u feed..u teach...u correct. u comfort. and prasie.

well trained dogs rarely end up at shelters... or on the streets.
when taught from puppies few turn in to problem dogs.

Did i explain myself better?

Answer 7

There may be some truth to what you claim here, and also to what the studies you felt compelled to paste here provide for.

I will check them out and get back with you.

Answer 8

dogs dont behave based on dominance, especially with people. the reason people follow dominance as a drive for pet dogs is Cesar Milan. He does things to dogs that scare the hell out of me. YOur dog is not trying to dominate you when it pulls on a walk (its not thinking: pull now, world domination next), he is simply not listening to you and doing his own thing. Some dogs are bullies, while others dont know how to communicate with other dogs and end up fighting due to inablilty to read body language (my own dog does this; he loves other dogs, but is affraid of them when they first meet)

Answer 9

Have you actually ever had any dogs? I currently have 2, but have had a lot more in my life. My one will lay in a doorway & not let the other one in. He'll take whatever bone/toy he has. He will chase him away from his food bowl even though they each have their own & I put them far enough away in the yard when I feed them. The last alpha male I had was dominant to 4 other dogs although he never bit any of them. His size & growl was enough to back them off. These "experts" should have lived with me!.

Answer 10

i wish i knew, i cringe when i hear people on this site telling people to roll thier dogs over and press on them when they growl, ir just makes the dogs think your insane

i have a pack of six dogs and we follow a pack logic, we eat then they eat, and we reinforce the natural order of things, with toys and treats, but i couldnt imagine being a dictator when dogs need a general