My question about god's plan vs. free will?

Question

So, I understand that most christians somehow say that with god there is both free will and god's plan which we all must follow.
Clearly, those two are completely incompatible, but I understand that many christians are ok with that. Some even say that god understands every possible step you might ever take, but he still must know which one I actually will take, else he wouldn't be omniscient.
Anyhow, is there anyone in your christian cosmology who looks after those who are destined to reject god because that is their part to plan in his divine plan?
Or, are they simply the unlucky unforgiven who where chosen for hell?

right Maurice...you really aren't answering the question, but I do think you are being honest.
Thanks.

ah...so let me keep this simple then: God's plan either has no real permanence or substance as it can easily be changed by even the least intelligent of humans, or God's plan is one that doesn't include the actions of individuals at all, and thus cannot be affected by us.
Interesting...thanks.

wd - yes, I understand. You feel that god's plan for the world doesn't actually include the actions of individuals, or his plan is simply to pay no attention to his foreknowledge of events given him by his omniscience, and just see what comes up.
Interesting ideas....

nynyyank - spin is a good word for it.
all those evil hindu grandmas who never chose christ.....burning right in hell...because they chose to burn in hell. Yep, you've got a good argument there, bub.
Thanks.

To Everyone - Thanks for all the spin....we're all dizzy from watching it happen. Now, let's untie these knots and move on.

Answer 1

Wow, these Christians are denser than I thought.

Do you people not realize how illogical your answers are?

If God is omnipotent, his will is absolute. If his will is absolute, it is not possible to defy it. Therefore, everything that happens is God's will, and that includes when people go to hell.

YOU CAN'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FUTURE IF THAT FUTURE IS NOT ALREADY DETERMINED. If God knew the future, and someone made a choice that destroyed that future (which they could do, according to your theory of free will), then God would be wrong. However, God is supposed to be omniscient, so he CAN'T be wrong. It's really very simple. If you can't understand that, you are either quite slow or you just have your head up your ***. I've never known a Christian who didn't fit at least one of those categories, if not both.

Answer 2

Many Christians do say that there is both free will and a plan, but the two can be compatible only if the plan has a foggy outcome and a hoping, wishing God to support a lack of omniscience required for such a belief.

Being "OK" with this belief makes it either testing or a mystery that we cannot understand, and yields a neutral mankind and a pile of questions (why would God allow bad things to happen, why an infinite love before death and wrath after, states of incapacity to choose, etc.).

Just a note before we go on, free will issues have to do with the ability to look to God for salvation. None of the mainstream Christian beliefs contest the capability to make day-to-day decisions. Man's capability to seek out God is the only facet of free will that is in dispute.

A statement about the "unlucky unforgiven chosen for hell" can only be valid under the assumption that man is neutral in the salvation process. But losers are subject to penalty, and I look at (and am supported scripturally by) the fact that all of mankind is a bunch of losers, unworthy of heaven, and most definitely not able to choose winnings that they don't have the right to claim for themselves.

And that's where I believe a choice for God falls apart, God does not offer freedom, He does not act as a telemarketer. He runs His universe, and pardons out of His sovereignty. It can never be up to the criminal, it can only be up to the judge as to whether a person will be saved or not. The criminal is a criminal, not feeling any guilt, not caring what the punishment is, and even denying the existence of the judge. He doesn't look at the saved as "lucky". He thus endures the wrath of God righteously, condemned already (John 3:18), no innocence, unless we give him that innocence with an ability to choose. I believe this goes against what the Bible says about who Man is.

Therefore the answer, my answer anyway, is that free will cannot logically exist if we are to worship an omnipotent God. To claim any ability for ourselves takes away from this omniscience and results in arrogance and a humanist attitude that looks to mankind for his own salvation by a perceived ability to choose, rather than a God who must bestow salvation, and therefore can foreknow and predestine the ones He has chosen to be among His flock.

Answer 3

Well this is tough...but to answer your question i would have to give a speech but the basic point is..
God is omnipresent, and omniscient given this he is an all knowing and all powerfull God. Christians know that there is a hell and there is a heaven. I believe God wants all humans to be saved but that isnt the case becuase he has given us the choice. It isnt that God choses who he wants saved and whom not. When God made man, then the woman he gave them free will, except he told them not to eat the fruit of knowledge (and no it wasnt an apple!) but yet the serpant, the devil leaded them into tempation. I beleive God did know this would happen, because he is omniscient but i dont think he made that decision.
The Last Supper is also another example, Jesus tells the desciples that one will betray him. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, yet God did not plan this, Judas also denies this and says he will go to the grave for Jesus, yet he will deny Jesus three times.
It is true that God knows all things and is everywhere, he knows if we will make it or not, but he does not make that decision we do. NO human can detect where we will go after our lives are over, only God has that power and knowledge, because he is our creator. He has given us salvation so we can be saved.
We as humans can do as we please, but if we allow God's will to be done in our lives, and are saved, we will be blessed. God could make us all worship him and be saved but he gives us the choice and when asked by prayer guides us through.
if you need further explanation i would be happy to explain =)

Answer 4

Would it be possible to visualize the plan as a scripted drama? God intentionally put people in situations that require them to be the antagonists and the abusers and their free-will is allowed by God. Once everything is said and done and death has come...everyone returns to the same source. (God does not choose the good ones from the bad ones)

More of an equal opportunity employer, that allows freedom of will to be acted out, so as to fulfil the ultimate plan.

Or would you prefer to believe that there is no ultimate plan and freedom of will is all there is? We do as we want and there is no prescribed plan. (Heaven is all we can hope for??)

Neither scenario makes very good sense. I am also searching for a better answer.

Answer 5

If you could please restate your opening line (after your main heading), that would be appreciated. It has too much assumption in it and I see no reason to continue reading without you having given basis for your understanding. I guess I say this because I totally disagree with your 'understanding'. Nevertheless, please read on.

1. You said, "I understand," okay, but with what basis?
2. You said, "most Christians SOMEHOW say," and WHY would most Christians say these things? Yet again, on what basis? Is there something in common with 'most Christians' that leads them to hold similar views on this topic? If so, what commonality do you think that could be?
3. "...which we MUST all follow." Please explain what you mean by 'must', because there is a difference between 'will follow' and 'should follow' or 'ought to follow'. From the way your questioning pans out, it appears that you perceive your use of the word 'must' to mean that it 'will occur', whether you want it to or not.

Again, if what you perceive of 'most Christians'' discussions on this subject to be that "the unlucky unforgiven... (are) CHOSEN for hell", then please give reason for this belief.

However, if you are not in the know as to WHY and on what BASIS (e.g. a portion of Biblical scripture) 'most Christians' say what you say they do, then please be more upfront and ask, "Why do most Christians believe such and such, as I understand they do?"

Cheers,

Gman.

Answer 6

Well I would sure like to know since I am one of those predestined to disbelieve. Personally I just say its his fault he gave me this brain that questions him in the first place. So where does that leave me? I get to go to hell because I choose reason over faith..........its not a freaking lottery with my life here. Thats what religion is like for me. I act in a more christian way in my daily life than most christians have ever done but I just dont believe in the notion of an omnipotent ever loving GOD who does the things he does for no other reason that because HE WANTS us to and if we dont he gets to judge us for it, come on now really.

Answer 7

Look, I hate to be the pessimist here, but the Bible's full of contradictions. Free will v. divine plan, ect. Evolution v. creationalism. The problem is in Hebrew, there is not a numerical symbol, so the whole "God made the Earth in 7 days" thing may leave room for both.
You must trust your faith and your faith. If you want to be a hardcore Christian, forget rationalism. Best of luck to you and your endeavors.

Answer 8

It is much simpler just to ignore the whole issue, and suppose that god doesn't exist. Since there is no evidence of such existence, this is a perfectly sensible thing to do. If anyone actually could prove the existence of god, fame and fortune would await; no one has ever done it.

Answer 9

Why do you say those two are completely incompatible? "God's plan" is not a forced plan. We can say "no" to it. God's knowledge of my future decisions is not a statement that I must MAKE that decision. It is still my choice. There is no one who is destined by God to reject God as part of His "divine plan." The Word clearly states that God does not want any one to perish but that ALL come to repentance --- that is His will and His plan. Obviously there are those who say "no" to that will and plan. Their choice not God's. Hell was not created for man - it was created for satan and his fallen angels - NOT man.

Answer 10

Ok, I am going to be as simple as possible. God gave you the free will to make the choice of doing good or doing evil. You have to choose. It has nothing to do with luck. Either you do evil and reject God, or reject evil, and come to God. It's that simple. Gods plan for all of us is to have life, and more abundantly. (John 10:10)