Another question for Jews about Isaiah 53?

Question

Why do you say there is no Rabbinic support that Isaiah 53 pertains to the Messiah?

Rabbi Jonathan ben Uzziel, a disciple of Hillel, wrote: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high, and increase, and be exceeding strong: as the house of Israel looked to him through many days, because their countenance was darkened among the peoples, and their complexion beyond the sons of men." (Targum Jonathan on Isaiah 53, ad Iocum)

Within the Babylonian Talmud, we read:

The Messiah—what is his name?…The Rabbis say, the leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi say, the sick one, as it is said, "Surely he hath borne our sicknesses." (Sanhedrin 98b)

We readin the Midrash Rabbah, explaining Ruth 2:14:

"He is speaking of the King Messiah: "Come hither" draw near to the throne "and dip thy morsel in the vinegar," this refers to the chastisements, as it is said, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities."

(continued)

The Midrash Tanhuma, parasha Toldot (end) says:

"Who art thou, O great mountain?" (Zechariah 4:7) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him the "great mountain?" Because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, "My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly."

This last quote blatently applies to Isaiah 52:13, a prelude to Isaiah 53; thus identifying the true identity of the One spoken of in Isaiah 53: The Messiah.

Apostate vigilante, you answered everything but what I asked. Could you please delete your answer and replace it with an answer to what I asked?

Quantrill, I've read many of Rabbi Tovia Singer's stuff. Doesn't he run Jews for Judaism?

Gratvol, my goodness! All you had to do was point me here:

http://www.judaismsanswer.org/targum.htm

To reiterate: I ask questions because I want to know WHAT YOU THINK. I am interested in YOU. Get it?

Answer 1

Christians get mad at Atheists for quoting things out of context. I always wonder then why Christians try to do it to Jews.

The chapter separation in the Bible was created in Medieval Europe. As such it was unknown to the early biblical commentators and writers.

If you were to actually look at Targum Jonathan in Isaiah 52 he would say that the entire "suffering servant" section of Issiah refers to Israel.

Now on to the Talmud.

If you would actually read this one as well in context you would see its multiple Rabbis using many verses in tanach to describe attributes of the Messiah. A name often in the Bible more describes who a person is than what he was actually called.

If I was to use Psalm 119:28 to describe how I feel or how someone else feels. That dose not mean that the verse was written for me. Or was a prophecy about me. To say so would be ludicrous. The same is true in this case.


The same also goes for the Midrashim you quoted. All colorful descriptions, but you will not find one that says that Isaiah 53 is a prophetic description of the Messiah. Their is no requirement in Jewish law or theology that the Messiah needs to suffer in any way. The fact that he is connected to suffering is only to humanize him more with the people who are reading what you mentioned.





At this point I must insult you. What you are doing at this point crosses from curiosity to intelectual dishonesty.

You and I both know that you did not find these sorces on your own. Nor can you in any way claim that you did.

You located these quotes from messianic websites or from people who did the same.

Your interest in this is not to learn or find out more, but to play some kind of gota game that you think you can win.

It is truly sad and pathetic that you need to even try to undermine someone elses religion to justify your own.

I expected more out of you. Aparently I was mistaken.

Answer 2

O that the Lord Most High would open the eyes of the blind,open the ears of the deaf, put a new heart where the heart is hardened so the Messiah might be revealed in his Fullness of Grace to my brother Israel.

Answer 3

***i comprehend that messianic jews are not Jewish. i'm very virtually consistently telling them that*** then you definately're a troll in violation of community regulations: ***we are a distinctive community of persons with distinctive evaluations. each and every person desires to be dealt with with appreciate, and exhibiting appreciate to others makes the community extra effectual for all individuals*** You prepare not extra appreciate for variety than Hitler and the KKK... and characteristic supported your hate speech with in basic terms as many data. asserting a Messianic Jew isn't a Jew is like asserting a polar submit to isn't a submit to. What!?!?! of direction considered one of those submit to is a submit to as Messianic Jews are Jewish. supply up the dislike speech and outline what makes a Jew a Jew. Make all Jews meet your standard. when you consider which you are able to no longer publicly outline Judaism in this open communicate board, you have no longer have been given any precise rant right here on Y!A. there is not any dictionary that defines some thing by what it is no longer. you don't get to be the exception to the rule of thumb. each and every person desires to nicely known and play be the comparable regulations or you are able to desire to retract your fact and show regret.

Answer 4

T he purpose of Isaiah,was to call the nations of Judah back to God, and to tell of God,s salvation through the Messiah, The messiah is Jesus the Son of God, When Jesus died for us, he did it willingly. Because Jesus is God, he could of escaped from his captors, and executioners with a spectacular display of power. But if he had, we would still be lost in our sins. How can we ever repay our Lord? We cant How should we respond? We can trust Jesus with our life and live as he wants us to. How are you showing your gratitude to Christ?...All of us have strayed away like sheep, We have left Gods paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of Us All.God bless you and all

Answer 5

Reading Isaiah 53, even I - a Christian - see it as a stretch to be a reference to Jesus. In context, looking at the rest of the book, it doesn't seem as if it's talking about some savior of souls or blood sacrifice for atonement of sins.

Answer 6

Since you seem to have so many questions on this topic I will put you in touch with someone I think can help you.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/questions.html

Rabbi Singer can answer all your questions.

He even has a tape series called Let's get Biblical. I am sure it will be very enlightening for you.

Answer 7

it is very clear to those of us Jews and others who will look to find truth-to those that run from it -no experience or truth will convince them-one day each will meet the Messiah face to face -after death -and it will be asked did you recieve my amazing grace or live in disgrace-even being religious -"all of our self righteousness is as filthy rags" Isaiah said that too--please come and answer my last question dealing with this too.

PRESS TO THE LAST PART AND ADD TO YAHOO, THEN IN THERE PRESS ADD TO YAHOO TOO-AND IT WILL FLAG MY ANSWERS-THE NEXT GUY I WENT AT IT WITH PROVED TO HIM IT DOES SPEAK OF MESSIAH IN THE SCRIPTURES AND POINTS RIGHT TO YESHUA-BUT HE HAS MADE UP HIS MIND NOT TO BELIEVE-AS I ONCE DID TOO-NOW YESHUA IS MY HAMOSHIACH-MESSIAH BEST FRIEND AND good shepherd too, its wonderfull

and in my 3rd blog I quote from the talmud with reference to Jesus/Yeshua in it and only he could fulfill the words or the Rabbis as well as the Jewish Scriptures

they can say whatever they desire--Yeshua is my best friend and my Messiah-without him though born a Jew I would not be a true Jew.

some claim to believe the Scriptures and deny the simple proofs of it. why because they do not truely know Messiah in their heart as savior and best friend too. pray for them and keep asking questions its the best that you can do, princess wonderfull my Jewish sister -as you praise our Jewish Messiah

Answer 8

Try reading the rest of Isaiah. The prophet tells us exactly who the suffering servant is (you don't need to be a biblical scholar to get this stuff)

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, ISRAEL, [art] my servant, JACOB whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

[44:1] Yet now hear, O JACOB MY SERVANT; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O JACOB, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

[44:21] Remember these, O JACOB and ISRAEL; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

[45:4] For JACOB my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

[49:3] And said unto me, THOU [ART] MY SERVANT, O ISRAEL, in whom I will be glorified.

Answer 9

Sorry, I'm not Jewish, but Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus Christ. Jesus is always the Messiah.

Answer 10

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13.

Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Matt. 16:22). See, also, Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 16:10-11; Jn. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (Jn. 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mk. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?
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Who is the suffering servant of the Lord?

Answer: The fact is that the identity of the servant has already been established by Isaiah in previously stated passages. In Isaiah 41 :8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3 the prophet identifies Israel as the servant.

Moreover, the history of Israel, down through the ages shows that the servant is, none other than Israel personified. Chapter 53 reiterates this fact by providing an historic overview of the tragedies and triumphs of the servant, Israel, throughout its history. Who would believe that this exiled nation, this humiliated loathsome Jewish people would be fated to survive the vicissitudes of its historical sufferings to once more have a future entailing prominence, hope, and joy
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Question: Is it true that in conformity with Isaiah 53:9, "he had done no violence," Jesus did nothing of a violent nature during his lifetime?

Answer: No, this is not true.

Violence, while not always an act of evil, may be defined as causing injury or damage by rough or abusive treatment. If the New Testament account is true, Jesus did commit certain acts of violence. Whip in hand he attacked the merchants in the Temple area, causing a fracas (Matthew 21:12, Mark 11:15-16, Luke 19:45, John 2:15). He caused the death, by drowning, of a herd of swine by allowing demons to purposely enter their bodies (Matthew 8:32, Mark 5:13, Luke 8:33) and destroyed a fig tree for not having fruit out of season (Matthew 21:18- 21, Mark 11:13-14).

Whether Jesus was right or wrong in attacking the merchants, or cursing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season, or permitting demons to enter the swine herd, causing their death, is of little consequence, because violence is violence. But, in these cases, the problem goes much deeper. Chamas is used in the Hebrew Scriptures to denote general injustice and violence (for example, Genesis 6:11, 13; Jeremiah 22:3); it is also used as a reference to a theft that has been obtained violently or unjustly (Jonah 3:8). Chamas, "violence," "wrong," "injury," "cruelty," is used in our verse to denote general injustice and violence. Included would be violent acts of vandalization where no personal gain was apparent. Involved in Jesus' attack on the merchants, the cursing of the fig tree, or permitting demons to enter the swine is a general injustice brought about by a violent act. In each incident people were deprived of their property through destructive acts of violence. No matter how one may justify Jesus' course of action it did involve general injustice and violence against other people's property. In each case, Jesus denied the owners their rightful use of their own property. The violation of another's rights is injustice. Jesus' actions fall within the definitions of chamas which denote general injustice and violence. But, to be precise, we are most concerned with the fact that the use of the word chamas indicates that some form of violence has occurred.

Jesus' acts of violence, even if they could be shown to be justified, demonstrate that he did not literally fulfill this description of the servant. But, it should be emphasized, these acts of violence, as they are recorded in the Gospels, are injustices. Jesus was not averse to using violence and held no general principle against violent action. If Jesus was truly non-violent he could not have uttered his call to family strife and divisiveness. Jesus proudly avows that his is a mission which will cause discord and disturb the universal peace, and bring war to the world (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53).

In Matthew 23:35 Jesus unjustly accuses the Jewish people of being responsible for the murder of all the righteous of mankind from Abel to Zechariah. This includes even the period of time before there was a Jewish people. In addition, Jesus called for his opponents to be brought before him for summary execution: "But these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27). This is the love, compassion, and nonviolence that Jesus taught. In both instances he gives encouragement to his later followers to use violence against the Jewish people. The Jesus of the Gospels does not meet the criteria set for the suffering servant in the phrase "had done no violence."
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