Here is an analogy that may explain what Jesus meant when He spoke on different opportunities of the relation between Him, His Father and the Holy Spirit.
Consider the sun and a perfectly polished, pure mirror looking at the sun. The sun represents God, the pure mirror reflecting the rays of the sun the "manifestation of God" in this case Jesus and the rays of the sun coming from the sun and reflected in the mirror the Holy Spirit.
If the mirror says that the sun is in me, it is absolutely correct. But if the mirror says that the sun is mightier that me and has a knowledge that I do not possess it is also correct. Because the mirror is just reflecting the rays of the sun.
If the mirror says that who has seen me has seen the sun, it is also correct because the sun is reflected inside the mirror. However the sun is not physically inside the mirror.
If you look at all the passages where Jesus mentions His relation to the Father and the Holy Spirit you will find that this analogy is correct. Best of all we do not need to make a dogma out of it.
2007-03-15 04:54:38
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answer #1
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answered by apicole 4
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While there is all kinds of evidence all through the Bible for the Trinity, that particular verse is one that can be a problem when trying to argue for the Trinity.
The Council of Nicene, which meet several times between 325 and 350 AD debated several important issues. Among those the canon of the New Testament, the acceptance of the Old Testament as scripture, the humanity (not the diety) of Jesus, and the Trinity.
Once the issue of the Trinity had been decided - and in favor of the doctrine - it was purposed by those who favored the doctrine that 1 John 5:7 be expanded to include the phrase "and these three are one".
It was oppossed by the head of the Council (who was also the head of the Trinity group) because he refused to allow a single word of the scriptures to be altered. He insisted that unless they were able to bring him even one manuscript that had the phrase, he would not allow it. (The whole dicussion is documented in the minutes of the Council).
A manuscript was eventually produced which contained the phrase, and so he backed down and permitted it to be included in the final version of 1 John. (Although later he wrote against the phrase, claiming the manuscript was a fake - but never provided proof of the claim).
Many of the newer translation either drop part of 1 John 5:7, or mark it as questionable. So because of that, it is usually not the best verse to use to argue for the Trinity.
But with all the others all through scripture, it is a verse that we can do "without" and still be able to show the Trinity exist.
2007-03-15 11:46:02
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answer #2
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answered by dewcoons 7
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My bible says: " There are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement."
If you read verse 5 & 6 you see that it is talking about Jesus conquering the world by water and blood, and the spirit bears witness to this. They are all in agreement that he conquered the world.
Regarding the words "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
Textual critic F.H.A. Acrivener wrote: "We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim." A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654
So according the scholars, this text was added to the bible and not in John's original text.
2007-03-15 11:42:54
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answer #3
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answered by Anonymous
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It's spurious. This verse does not come close to proving the trinity. It does not say that God is composed of 3 co-equal, co-eternal persons. It just says they are one. In the Bible, "one" means "harmony," "in agreement." John 10:30; 17:22. So even if 1 John 5:7 were not spurious, at the most it would mean that the Father, Word, and holy spirit agree with something. It does not prove the trinity.
2007-03-15 11:27:27
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answer #4
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answered by LineDancer 7
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this is ismple to me, these three are one, there are 3 god the father jesus the son and the holy spirit god's spirit, if it weren't so then why does jesus pray to the father ? there are many who believ in jesus only, what about the whole old tesament? and what about all the times jesus spoke of his father and also said, if had known the father you would have known me. also, why then, does jesus tell them he will ask the father to send them a comforter which is the holy spirit for after he goes to the father, there are many verses other than the one *(together they are one) which prove the trinity, read the bible and believ it and dont take away or add or twist the meaning! thanks kitty for your question i think it's great to try and inform people who dont understand, and i believe you got the right idea! God bless all!!!
2007-03-15 11:50:29
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answer #5
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answered by call_me_LaLa 6
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Anti Trinitarians love to say it was added later.Just like they like to say"The word Trinity isn't in the Bible" so what? the teaching is.Jesus says "I and the Father are one" Peter says in Acts 5 "You lied to the Holy Ghost.You have not lied to man but to God".That's good enough for me.
1x1x1=1 God .Which is different from 1+1+1= 3 gods.Or the Pentecostal Jesus is the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit,He just changes hats.
2007-03-15 11:39:42
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answer #6
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answered by AngelsFan 6
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NIV Footnotes:
1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)
2007-03-15 11:30:52
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answer #7
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answered by creationrocks2006 3
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These verses actually read as follows:
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (ESV Translation)
The verses you quote using KJV or variant translations are missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek manuscript written before the 16th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age - one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen’s New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in all the early Greek manuscripts.
The version you quote should never be used to appeal to the doctrine of the Trinity.
The passage from KJV is now omitted in the best editions of the Greek Testament, and regarded as spurious by the ablest critics. On the whole the evidence seems to me to be clear that this passage is not a genuine portion of the inspired writings, and should not be appealed to in proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. One or two remarks may be made, in addition, in regard to its use.
1. Even on the supposition that it is genuine, as some believed it was, and as some believed that some Greek manuscript would still be found which would contain it , yet it is not wise to adduce it as a proof-text. It would be much easier to prove the doctrine of the Trinity from other texts, than to demonstrate the genuineness of this.
2. It is not necessary as a proof-text. The doctrine which it contains can be abundantly established from other parts of the New Testament, by passages about which there can be no doubt.
3. The removal of this text does nothing to weaken the evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, or to modify that doctrine. As it was NEVER used to shape the early belief of the Christian world on the subject, so its rejection, and its removal from the New Testament, will do nothing to modify that doctrine. The doctrine was embraced, and held, and successfully defended without it, and it can and will be so still.
It always disturbs some devout Christians to learn that parts of verses 7, 8, as found in the KJV and NKJV, are actually found in only a handful of Greek manuscripts of the NT.
But this does not at all affect the truth of the inspiration of the Scriptures. Some people think it is important to retain the words because they mention the three Persons of the Trinity. However, the truth of the Trinity does not depend on this passage alone, but is found in many other portions of the Scriptures.
Discussion of the verses:
Having stated in the previous verses the Person and work of Christ, John now goes on to state the trustworthiness of our belief in Him. He says that there are three that bear witness (the words “in earth” should not be included), the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. Although the word of God should be sufficient for us, as a basis of faith, He condescends to give us a threefold witness concerning the truth. First of all, the Spirit of God bears witness to the truth that Jesus Christ is God and that He is the only Savior of the world. The witness of the Spirit is found in the written word of God.
Then there is the witness of the water. We believe that this refers to what happened at the baptism of the Lord Jesus. At that event, God opened the heavens and publicly proclaimed, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Thus God the Father added His own witness to God the Spirit concerning the Person of Christ.
Finally, there is the witness of the blood. On the cross, the Lord Jesus bore witness concerning Himself that He was the Son of God. No one took His life from Him; He laid it down by Himself. If He were a mere man, He could not have done this. The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ witnesses that the sin question has been settled once and for all to the satisfaction of God. All these three witnesses agree as one. That is, they are united in the testimony concerning the perfection of the Person and work of Christ.
2007-03-15 11:54:33
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answer #8
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answered by Ask Mr. Religion 6
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The phrase "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is not in the earliest manuscripts of the bible; it was added later. Most modern translations, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include these words in the main body of the text.
“For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”—1Jo 5:7, 8.
This rendering is in agreement with the Greek texts by C. Tischendorf (eighth ed., 1872); Westcott and Hort (1881); Augustinus Merk (ninth ed., 1964); José MarÃa Bover (fifth ed., 1968); United Bible Societies (third ed., 1975); Nestle-Aland (26th ed., 1979).
After “witness bearers” the cursive mss No. 61 (16th century) and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vgc add the words: “in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth.” But these words are omitted by ×ABVgSyh,p.
(Symbols above refer to several ancient manuscripts.)
2007-03-15 11:27:33
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answer #9
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answered by Abdijah 7
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They can't comprehend the word trinity 1*1*1=1 their concept of trinity is 1+1+1=3
2007-03-15 11:32:17
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answer #10
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answered by arveen paria arasuk 6
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