How do you traditional martial artists (TKD Karate K-Fu N-jitsu H-kido, etc., test true combat effectiveness?

Question

I have posted several questions along of the lines of disbelief and shock that many people still believe that traditional (pre UFC) martial arts (i.e., Karate, Kung Fu, Ninjitsu, Hapkido, Akido, Tae Kwon Do, etc.) are effective in TRUE combat..

Some of the people responding seem to think that what happens in the UFC, Pride, or other MMA competitions are not true depitictions of what happens in a real street fight.

I guess, my question is, have these people ever actually seen, or been in a REAL street/bar fight. The tools that Mixed Martial Artists use (mostly Brazialian Jiu JItsu and Muy Thai) are not only effective in the cage/ring, but work very well on the street as well. If the cage/ring of a MMA fight is not a good depiction of a REAL fight then what the hell is?

Pressure Points, Yellow Bamboo Ki Yells, breaking boards, and doing katas may be fun and entertaining, but have you ever tried any of these techniques against a resisting partner or in a REAL fight?

BTW....I know that I may come across as a little harsh, but I have been in at least one form or another of martial for over 20 years now......I just cannot believe what people acually believe these days as REAL self defense....I am amazed.

Answer 1

Thank you Bluto... the link was precious. There is also a challenge I found I'll post that here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szVzylud6b4&mode=related&search=
Sorry, back to the question/statements
A traditional martial artist would train against resisting opponents, the traditional martial artists of old did by all accounts. Modern day is a bit different of course. There are law suits, other activities, pressure, instant gratification issues and such. As far as TRUE combat... that would be war... we tend to use weapons and distance. As far as useful in the street, if your system or style trains realistically, you have a better shot but that is not automatic. I'm sure some school out there trains realistically that you call traditional.
I've seen quite a few fights in person and been a few myself. I'm not bragging, stuff happens. I've seen a TKD guy kick the stuffing out of a guys face and drop him... I've also taken down a few TKD guys. It is the training I believe that counts. I think MMA gets folks a lot closer to a real fight. In a match I would never try to use every advantage (rip out eyes, etc) in a life or death situation I might, but a straight punch or break (hold in the arena) tends to have a success rate.
As to your point on pressure points, etc., Once again, I would default to training, I don't think the yells are going to help too much other than alert other people of an issue. The pressure points can be negated by drugs, different physiology due to surgery or genetics or just plain mind set...
Just my thoughts... I could be wrong.

Answer 2

None of this is personal so please do not think I am trying to start some nonsense here.
First and foremost, you should learn the difference in some of the terminology you are using.
A fight is a willing physical clash of egos.
A self-defense situation is one in which a person is being victimized against their will.
Combat is a strategic situation where certain goals are trying to be achieved by an organization.

UFC is not real. It is a sports entertainment show. I know they are hitting each other for real, I am not disputing that.
You have asked about REAL fights. No, I have not been in a fight. A fight is a willing physical clash of two or more egos. I am too intelligent to get into a fight. I have, however, been in self-defense situations. And I have witnessed fools at bars fighting each other. I have also witnessed many fools in the street fighting for no reason at all.
Here is why UFC is not real. The mat is much softer than concrete, It lacks environmental factors like chairs, curbs, tables, other people, bottles, street signs, unleveled surfaces etc. It is one on one; often a self-defense situation is not a fair fight. The attacker has some advantage be it numbers, size, surprise, weapons etc. The UFC has a referee; I have never seen these in the street. UFC has time limits. UFC has a cage; I have never seen anyone in the street fight in a caged area.

I cannot speak for other arts here but I can speak for my training. I know my style works. It has been around for 1000's of years. In fact many of the MMA come from the original style I train in. It has been proven to work through the test of time. The best a martial artist (not a fighter) can hope for is realistic training. Training should simulate real self-defense situations as closely as possible without endangering the participants. The best one can hope for is exposure to similar situations, and then when a real situation occurs you have some experience to fall back on.
Also, we don't break things, we don't use Ki energy and pressure points are only a small fraction of the whole picture. Kata, well let me ask you this, when you are 40,50, 60or even 70 years old are you still going to be training in the same manner you train now? I bet I will be able to and I owe that to the form. We do apply our techniques in a sparring situation, we do continuous contact and there are no points kept.


If you want to do sport fighting, that is fine but recognize the realistic limitations on what you are training in. Also, I haven't even gotten into the benefits of traditionalism such as self-discipline, self-respect and honor. As far as I am concerned these are the most beneficial part of my training.

Answer 3

Martial arts ans sport are 2 totally different concept. They by no means are equal. The 2 look different and are practiced different. Unfortunately many today do not know the difference. Many are being taught a sport and never learn the art. Therefore people with no knowledge of the arts see a weak version of a true art and gauge everyone according to their knowledge of martial arts and they don' have any knowledge. I love how pugspaw, sensei scandal, stillcrazy put it. I have nothing against those that play games. That is great for them. However, I am interested in having the knowledge and ability of self defense. I'm interested in budo. I do not even want to use the term martial with sport. The 2 does not go together. One is a game. The other is war. There is nothing better than when attacked knowing how to position yourself in a manner that the attacker can't do anything, but is exposed to everything that will stop the threat immediately. When I was a child I played tag. I don't play that childish game anymore. We used to trade punches in grade school. I don't trade punches anymore. If I hit you I mean to stop you. I do not look for a referee to say you tapped out. I'll know you are out when the lights go out and you go limp. I'll know that you surrender when I hear or feel the joint snap. I'll know you can't use that limb right now to attempt to harm me or my family.

Answer 4

I see you have tried to be eloquent in your phrasing of this question so I will reply without any subsequent vulgarities.

UFC, Pride, etc... all have realistic aspects of a fight incorporated into them. I won't argue that, as a matter of fact, I enjoy watching these competitions. They do not have the most "realistic" of depictions of a fight however. Here is what I mean:
they wear gloves
use mouthprotectors
have rules
a referee
padded surface
one on one
time limits
judges
ring doctors
rounds
as well as they come to the ring expecting a fight.

I have been in real streetfights, and my martial arts training did help. I have nothing against the styles you listed, they work and thats fine. I also understand your question, many martial artists have never trained for a realistic attack, and are not taught to improvise and to adapt to their opponents attacks. This is the fault of their instructors, not their systems.
Improperly instructed students ( and, teachers ) make the rest of the martial arts community look bad.

As for using the techniques taught in kata, forms, etc...., every move should be adaptable to a real situation. Otherwise you are doing aerobics.

I doubt my diatribe will change your mind, but hopefully it will give you something to think about.

Answer 5

Your Question:

How do you traditional martial artists (TKD Karate K-Fu N-jitsu H-kido, etc., test true combat effectiveness?

I can not speak for everyone of us,only myself and
a couple of close friends.
We wait.....we train,try to stay healthy,(un-injured),
stay very aware, and we wait.

We wait for the party when the unexpected happens.
We wait for the flat tire in the bad neighborhood.
We wait for the young girl being pulled into a van.
We wait for the elderly trying to keep her purse.
We wait for the teen being beaten by a group.
We wait for the man who punches his wife.
We wait for the man who strikes his child to the ground.
We wait for the boyfriend beating his girlfriend in the parking lot of a movie theater.

We Wait

Then like a rubber band that is held stretched back,we
strike.Following the training that is part of our makeup.
The greatest threat goes down first,be it size,distance,
or a weapon,this person goes to the concrete.
Draw the conflict to you and away from the victim,if there
is one.Deliver blows that require medical treatment.The
police only have to wait for a call from the hospital to round up the troublemakers.See to the victims needs if there are any.Help the police with information they need because they were not there to see for themselves what happened.
I have had my share of testing the effectiveness of my training.My knuckles have been stitched up due to broken teeth twice over the years.I have been stabbed twice,(from behind),due to multiple opponents,and cracked open my head on concrete a number of times.
I have also seen the look of concern on my moms face when washing my clothes and the water turned red with blood,(not all mine),and the hushed talk between her and my dad in the den.The house so quiet you could hear your own heart beat.
I am 50 years old,but the "oath" I took as a teen still stands today.
The part of the oath that has always seemed the most important to me is this:
"I will come to the defense of those less able to defend themselves,Regardless of the Odds"
The question has come in the past about what makes a person a "True Martial Artist"
Tho not covered in your question it applies here.
A true Martial Artist is "Selfless"......It does not enter your mind that you may be crippled or killed coming to the aid of someone you never met.All that goes through your mind is "Your Responsibility" & your promise to "Defend" yourself or others.
I hope you can see that a Martial Artist who takes this oath to heart has "Many More" opportunities to,as you say,
"test true combat effectiveness"
Far more than someone who only looks out for themselves.

MMA matches are as close to a "Real" fight as you can get.
(except there's no "Tap Out" and shake hands in a street fight)
Not quite a knock down drag out,in the back parking lot of a bowling alley,but as close as you can get,

Answer 6

"Traditional martial arts are not about combat effectiveness!"

I'm sure the samurai and chinese warriors of old would be glad to hear that.

No these TMA's do not test combat effectiveness. The only way to do that is with live sparring at multiple ranges. Most TMA's teach in one range, with too many fancy techniques, and at best point sparring.

The truth is in combat you utilize the most basic techniques only... Even BJJ is guilty of teaching fancy techniques that don't work in a real fight but at least you have a chance to figure that out in sparring. With TMA's because there is no real sparring it's all theory and you never get a chance to find out what workds and what doesn't.

There are a few ecxeptions to this of course... I have a friend who uses a modified form of wing chun (he uses alot of boxing type punches) and spars alot so he is effective. Of course it helps that wing chun doesn't have much in the way of fancy techniques.

Answer 7

For the record, I study a traditional martial art: Aikido. No, not the fruity-tooty, hippy stuff...nor the "here, grab my wrist" stuff either. We focus on deflection/neutralization of strikes/kicks, blunt objects (e.g. baseball bat, lead pipe, etc.) and knives/broken bottles/sharp objects..."real world" scenarios. Also for the record, no martial art (not even the combat arts) is effective against firearms...period.

Also for the record, I think that UFC, Pride or other MMA competitions are exactly that: competitions. That's not how real street fights go. Street fights don't have rules (as you know, there are indeed some rules in UFC, Pride & MMA comps) and there's no time limit and there's no "tapping out." Also, most folks who are apt to be "street fighters" or "bar room brawlers" are not trained in BJJ or Muy Thai or any other combat arts (although I'm sure some are). So my Aikido is just fine, thank you very much.

To answer your main question: yes, I've seen & been in "real" street fights, and my Aikido is plenty good against unarmed attackers since most folks who engage in street fights/bar room brawls are beligerent (and usually drunk) fools who mostly posture and talk trash. If they decide to take a swing or attempt a kick, I just move out of the way and keep dodging until they decide to give up out of frustration. If they become even more aggressive, I just kick them in the nuts and walk away laughing...that's "real" street-fighting! And if they come back for more, then it's time for some painful jointlocks until they give up.

Answer 8

well i study a combination of wing chung, shing yi, and iron palm, i've been envolved in many street fights in which all of them lasted for no more than 10 sec.s .. the best street fight was me verse 6 guys , needless to say im the only one who walked away after it was over. so yes kung fu is very efective....

Answer 9

most martial arts have punching and kicking. last time i checked punching was still effective.

Answer 10

"Traditional martial arts" are not about "combat effectiveness!"

If I were to make a broad, sweeping generalization, I would say that traditional martial arts are about SELF CONTROL.
.