3rd Dan at 15 years old?

Question

Ok, i know this girl who has practiced Karate since she was 5 years... at the age of 15 years old she is a 3rd Dan in Karate and is now refered to as "Master". Her parents are both solicitors with their own business...

its for this reason i do not believe that the club is being run legitimately... this club grades their own pupils and is not under any federation (like AMA for example)

what do you think i should do?

oh i should add... i am not actually a member of this club

i have my own club, just astonished that she is a third dan but not worth a black belt

by having my own club i meant i train at a different club, i aint worthy to be a sensei just yet!

Answer 1

Hi there

lots of different views about this one. Firstly in my opinion no child under the age of 16 should hold an adult Dan grade. The problem with children is most of them lack the discipline or maturity to hold black belts. Ive seen many articles in local papers over the years showing child of x age gets this and that! What a complete load of rubbish. Most martial artists will tell you there are different reason why grades are awarded. Some for the skills level of the student. Others are for showing determination, commitment and respect for others. The problem with young students is that if you don't keep awarding them for there ability they lose interest. For me its OK to have junior black belts that are graded using a children's syllabus but once they reach 18 then they must regrade and take an adults examination.

It really did bring a tear to my eye when i read the part about being a master! Trust me there are NO masters of any martial art in this country or the west! If you want to train with masters you go to Japan! Anyone calling themselves a master in the uk just has a rather large ego. There's a misconception that having a black belt makes you a good fighter. Just read some of the above posts! All a black belt proves is that the student has good knowledge of the style and nothing more. As for federations there a complete farce and at best pyramid schemes where the man at the top makes tons of cash for doing sweet FA!

Always judge the student by the teacher not the style or the organisation they belong to. I will guarantee that 98 percent of people practicing martial arts are not registered in Japan or where their art originated. I just dont see the point in registering with a British organisation when you are practicing a Japanese art?

Regards

Idai

Answer 2

I'm speaking from a taekwondo viewpoint.

1) Some schools make students call ALL black belts "Master" just like other schools make everyone address them by "sir" or "ma'am."

In South Korea, ALL 1-5 dan black belts are technically "Master." In actuality, I've never heard anyone called that. Point of fact: I call every single black belt of ANY poome or dan rank at my studio "little brother" or "little sister" because I'm the oldest student there. They all call me "big sister." The only person in our studio with any title is the instructor--Kwanjangnim! (And his brother and father when they appear, also known as Kwanjangnim!)

It's just a title, who the heck cares?

2) What does "Her parents are both solicitors with their own business..." have to do with anything? Who the heck cares?

3) You don't even train at this club. So why the heck do you care? I had to train at another studio briefly and while I disagreed with some of the things they did, I just thought, "Oh well, not my problem." You need to have the same attitude.

Frankly, it sounds like you're about her age and simply have some of that girl-on-girl jealousy going on. What should you do? Get over it.

Answer 3

Look at the other signs.

Ok, it MAY not be a sign it is a mcdojo- it is certainly evidence against it.

HOWEVER- a 15 year old is not a 12 year old, as someone pointed out 12 year olds attain the title of "master" this I would find more highly suspect.

This is one of those things that you need more information about how she attained it, when she attained the majority of the ranks and most importantly HOW THE SCHOOL TRAINS.

It is possible that she attained all of her ranks as a teen, improbable but possible.

can she fight? Does the school train with resistance?

how many other "baby black belts" do they have?

A black belt doesn't mean she can fight. It SHOULD be based on merit, but often isn't.

A mcdojo is a school that isn't concerned with training students properly, it just wants to take money. One good indicator is that they do all kata work or don't use resistance in training. Point sparring is NOT really sparring it is martial tag.

Answer 4

Im 14 (15 in two weeks) and I have been training since i was 11. I am a bluebelt at my club (purple, brown, black). I have worked hard for my grade and love the sport, but the girls club should be under some sort of board im sure. A club near me just gives pupils the belts after certain amount of time being there, this one girl had been going 18 months (she came to our club a couple of times) and she was a purple belt, two higher than me at the time, i ws like what the, ive been training way longer etc. but when we got in the sparring ring together, she had never had a sparring lesson in her life I swear.
as for child/adult grades, we train mixed so I think there is only one belt system for us both.
I would just not have classes there.

Answer 5

I don't know what specific style of Karate you speak of but I have never heard of a 3rd Dan referred to as "master" regardless of age. I have trained in Shotokan Karate, I believe 10th Dan is the highest and then a "Master" tag, and Shao-Lin Kempo which has 10th Dan with a "Master" tag.

From my experience a 15 yr old would have what is called a Jr. Black Belt, so it seems that 2nd, 3rd Dan etc...when the person is not an adult is irrelevant. Most schools would even have the child (which is what a 15yr old is) re-test when they become of age (usually around 18) to get an official black belt.

the bottom line is if you think that the school is not on the up-and-up...don't train there. It doesn't have to be affiliated with anyone, but you should agree with its principles for the higher ranking students.

Answer 6

I only got my 3rd Dan after 16 years of training and I ain't no master for sure. In the past (pre-WW2), when traditional training was still hard to find and practiced, a 3rd Dan was considered 'master' because it was a very high grade and it may take a whole lifetime to achieve (even as Japanese).

Nowadays, 3rd Dan is easily obtainable because of the system McDojos implement and if she indeed had trained for 10 years, she deserves her 3rd Dan and yet, I still do not see why anyone has to refer to her a 'Master'.

By the point of view in marketing, a 'master' sounds classy and a easy to sell.

Usually a person is being given the title 'Master' refering to the head/heads of a school/dojo and no one else should be called 'Master' unless they are 5th Dan above.

Answer 7

Throw her in real karate tournament such as Kyokushin, Shidkoan, or Eshin, I bet the house on your so call "3rd Dan" friend would end up break down and beg to not fight before the match even start.

Personally if I have to call someone younger than 30ish a master, I would lose respect for whole dojo. UNLESS they have tons and tons of experience under their belt and can back everything up. But that will put them in mid or late 20's anyway.

So if she think she's the baddest person to walk this planet, ask her to take part in Kyokushin karate tournament. I promise you she'll either leave before she even fight or get knock out hard in less a minute.

Answer 8

It is indeed possible. I know that the club I train at (and many clubs ive seen) have a different system for the juniors than the adults. It is possible to be a 3rd Dan at age 15, but her training might only be the level of an adult green belt. Students in my club who are juniors achieve the "sensai" title in the junior classes with a junior belt.

Ask if this is the case. If you have concerns, dont train at this club.

Answer 9

Sounds a bit McDojo to me. My own son is currently preparing for his second dan at 15 years old. He has been training for 10 years also and has been competing nationally with a good deal of success for most of them. His current shodan is at junior level and when he grades nidan he will do so at Cadet (U18) and he will have to re-grade at Senior level. Our gradings are all externally conducted by our 8th Dan Japanese Sensei and he has already commented on people presenting themselves for 3rd dan at 21 years old. He is considering putting a minimum age of 23 years old.
My own son is a very accomplished Karateka and whilst he can compete (and beat) many of us older Dan Grades at 15 he does not have the maturity of thought to fully understand what he is attemp[ting to acheive in Karate.
At the end of the day if her grade is not recognised by any of the major organisations I would suggest it does not carry much validity.
At the end of the day you pay your money and you take your choice. Best advice would be not to join that particular club. Lastly there are plenty of clubs associated with the big organisations who post pictures of their junior dan grades on line with the prefix Sensei before their name. Personally I find it funny but not worth getting upset about.

Answer 10

The entire industry is not regulated!!! There was only one belt and if it was black that meant you were around a long time, because you are not to wash it. If you question it then there is a reason for it. I say leave. oh and AMA is a joke as well. If you see a place with those stickers then they are look for validation for a reason......they suck, end of story. Take Boxing if you can't find any place or take it as cardio. That's all it's worth anyway.