Do you think there is a correlation between no prayer/increase in violence in public schools?

Question

One of the biggest arguments I hear for returning prayer to public schools is that there seems to be a correlation between the rise of violence in schools and when prayer and discipline were taken out. When prayers could be said publicly, we did not have some of the conditions that we are concerned with today.

Which is worse, worrying about having to have your kids go thru metal detectors or having them hear a prayer?

If you don't believe there is a correlation, please state your case.

By the way, I am not suggesting we go back to allowing teachers to beat students!!

Thanks!

Answer 1

no.

there is an increase in many things, theres more co2 in the atmosphere, do you think that this is directly responsible for it too?

Answer 2

I don't think increasing prayer in school would make any difference at all. If people want our schools to be less violent, they need to be a place that has the resources to properly educate students so they their studies will occupy them. At my high school, most of the classes didn't even have textbooks and the dropout rate was over 50% and fights were almost a daily occurrence. Coincidence? I think not. Schools can also be made less violent by encouraging students to treat each other humanely, not because God says so but because it is for the greater good of everyone. Bullying and violence should be thoughtfully discussed and discouraged. Nowadays, students are picking fights with each other just to get kicks or post the video on the Internet. I suppose if the parents were more active in teaching their children ethics and respect for others, these types of things wouldn't happen as much.

Answer 3

First, you'd have to establish that prayer was removed from schools in the first place. As far as I know, students have never been prohibited from praying in school.

You'd have to establish that violence in school has actually increased, and is not simply receiving more widespread and sensationalist media coverage.

Then you'd have to see if there is a correlation, bearing in mind that a correlation does not establish a causal relationship.

Then you'd have to identify every other thing that has changed besides prayer in schools, and see if there are correlations there too. Did the food served in the cafeterias change? Did teacher salaries increase to keep up with inflation? Did the Internet enable cyber-bullying? Are more kids on Prozac or Ritalin? Have parenting styles changed? Has media influenced teen behavior? And so on and so on.

When violence happens in schools, each case is different and the causes are varied and complex. The probability that a decrease in prayer in schools is correlated with increased school violence is extremely low, which is why I would reject such a claim as an unscientific appeal to emotion.

All of which overlooks the obvious, which is that the efficacy of prayer has been tested, and found to have no effect upon anything. In other words, prayer doesn't work, so why would it have any bearing on the issue at all?

Answer 4

According to the Federal Bureau of Justice, teenage violence has been on a steady decline over the last 2 decades. Stds and abortion are also on the decline (though not as substantial as violence).

There is actually more of a correlation with more youths becoming atheists/non-believers and the dropping rates of teen violence.

This correlation coincides with the overwhelming correlation of atheists almost never committing crime, acts or violence, etc... Atheists are 14% of the US population but 0.209% of the prison population. .... Further, atheist majority countries have by far the lowest rates of crime/murder/rape, abortion, stds, teen pregnancy, and so on.

So statistically there is a stronger correlation that no public prayer in schools is decreasing violence!

Which should be just fine with christians... in Mathew 6:5-6 Jesus specifically says not to pray in public places like streets or schools. =P

Answer 5

There is no correlation. Violence in the schools is higher in the United States than many countries with no prayer in school. Lets look at China. I can guarantee there hasnt been prayer in school for a longer time than in America, but they dont have the problem.

Kids drink more soft drinks today. Maybe that is what is causing it. Kids use computers, maybe thats it. Kids go to a lot more organized activities, could that be it? Can you see what I am getting at? It seems silly to blame these things, but they are just as valid (or not valid) as the prayer thing.

Answer 6

I do not believe that prayer should be forced in school. However, as of now, in the US, it is not illegal for a student to pray in school. It is, however, illegal for prayer to be mandated or if a student is forced to listen to a prayer. (What I just said is based on a variety of Supreme Court cases like Santa Fe v. Doe.) Just to repeat my main point, prayer can still be said in public schools, but students may not be forced to join in the praying.

The next thing I'd like to discuss is the idea that there's a correlation between lack of forced prayer in school and increased violence. First of all, please show me a source that shows that there is an increase in violent action in proportion to the number of students in the country.
But, for argument's sake, let's just assume that you were right about increased violence in schools. Why do you presume that lack of prayer causes violence by students? Neither before nor after the abolishment of mandatory school prayer have I heard about any religion-related crimes in schools (with the possible exception of actions based on religious intolerance). How do you know that the violence wasn't lower because of physical punishments by teachers? Beating misbehaving students probably had a larger impact than forcing them to pray.
Another thing is that in the last few decades the amount of people owning computers has increased. There is as little evidence showing that owning a computer causes violence as does praying in school.

Lastly, praying more often doesn't mean behaving better. If you need proof, just look at the Catholic priests who molested the alter boys.


My point is that prayer is allowed in school, but it can't be forced upon the students. Also, I don't see why you think that violence is a direct result of not being ordered to pray.
I'm not against praying, but I don't like the idea of being forced to pray.

Answer 7

Do you have a few studies you can point us to that back up the idea that violence increased as a result of no more teacher-led prayer in the schools?

In reality, prayers can still be said publicly. There is no law against that. What can no longer happen is school personnel (usually teachers) teaching Christian prayers to all children (regardless of their own beliefs), and then requiring them to recite said prayers every day right along with the pledge.

I have no concern with my children hearing a prayer. My issue would be with them being taught and made to recite the prayers of a religion other than their own.

Would you so strenuously support the prayers of a non Christian religion being taught and recited in public schools? If lack of prayer is causing the violence, wouldn't any religion's prayers work?

Answer 8

Correlation does not mean causation. You can make correlations until the cows come home, but just because two quantities are correlated does not indicate that one causes the other. There can be any number of other factors involved that are being ignored. How many other changes have occured in the same time period? A heck of a lot more has happened than just the decrease in school prayer and the increase in school violence.

Answer 9

They did occur at roughly at the same time. However there is a multitude of other factors. The out of control illegitimate birth rate which CAN play havoc with discipline. School spanking was removed. Spanking at home is labeled as abuse and is banned. Without the 'fear of rod' the inmates took over the assylum.

Without a solid base of fair handed discipline and enforced rules you end up teaching the bad eggs that there are no consequences to limit their actions. Suspension is a waste. If they wanted to be in school they wouldn't be acting like prison thugs in the first place.

Its sad that the unemployed, hate spewing, drug dealing, 'gangsta' behavior has become the role model of the weak minded sheep in search of a herd. But I suppose a low standard is easy to achieve.

Answer 10

It has nothing to do with the schools themselves. Kids wouldnt need to pray at school, or be disciplined at school if their parents took half a minute to talk to their kids. Teach them right from wrong. Religon is at least good for giving children a value system. I dont understand why we cant compromise on that issue, and have 5 minutes of quiet reflection or something. Athiest kids can sit quietly, christian kids can pray, and kids of other religons can do what it is they do, or meditate, or-hell get 5 more minutes to catch up on the homework they didnt do last night. Dont blame the schools, or the religon. Put it where it belongs- Parents not doing their jobs

Answer 11

Well, at the same time as the "so called" elimination of prayer from schools, teachers WERE prohibited from disciplining students. Also, schools are now required to keep disruptive children in schools (mainstreaming). Half of the children in schools come from broken families. Children are playing much more violent games. Children are seeing more violence on TV.

With all this, you think that the problem is prayer?