Biblical circle-think - calling all believers!?

Question

A Believer (B) is trying to save Someone (S):

S-how do I know there's a God, heaven, Jesus, etc.
B-the Bible tells us so.
S-the Bible says a lot of things. Why should I believe the Bible?
B-the Bible says that the Bible was inspired by God, IS the word of God, and that every word is true. (quotes scripture to prove point.)
S-so the Bible says that the Bible is true?
B-correct, and it also says that belief in...is the only way to get to heaven. (quotes more scripture)
S-so, I can't get to heaven unless I believe in what the Bible says, and the Bible is 'fact' because it says it was basically written by God, and it also says that God is never wrong...and that proves that it is true?
B-yes, the Bible is very clear about this.
S-and if I don't believe?
B-you go to hell. The Bible is very clear about that too.

Doesn't anyone see the problem with this? This double-think works on 4 year olds, but I'd like to hear from grown-up believers. Why do you take this at face value?

yeah, it's serious, not just a jab a others. I practically grew up in a church; went to church school. This is the sort of thing they teach. They have pamphlets illustrating similar 'debates', and offer ways to 'confuse' athiests... which to any athiest, these 'debates' are just sad.

One reader here said that you have to WANT to believe in order to believe. That implies that you feel the need to believe in SOMETHING, whereas I don't feel the need to believe in ANYTHING. I'm fine with the fact that when you die, you're dead (and it's a fact until demonstrated otherwise, whether empirical or logical). I view departures from logic as departures from reality, in a way.
You can't rationalize or come to believe in religion through logic - I know that. So perhaps better questions would be 1) are logical/skeptical people doomed to hell (which they don't believe in anyway), 2) why are religious people illogical or 3) why do xtians quote scripture to the skeptics?

Answer 1

First, let me deal with the "circular" argument, before I get to the matter of quoting it to one who doesnt believe it. Most people think of the Bible as One Book. It isnt. It is a compilation of 66 books. Written by over 40 authors, over 2000 years, on three different continents. There were Kings, Shepards, Priests, Herdsmen, Fishermen, etc. Yet even though many of them did not know each other, and in some cases were unaware of the others writings, they still all in some form relate an experience they had with a Being who described Himself as the Creator of the Universe and the Only God of Mankind. Yet their experiences "jell" with each other and are remarkably consistent. That is why if "Matthew quotes" Isaiah", or "John" quotes "Daniel", or if "Jesus" quotes "Moses", it is NOT circular reasoning. They all lived in different times and different places. It is the perfect empirical experiment. Now when Im having a discussion with a person who doesnt believe the Bible and they tell me that it doesnt do any good quoting it, I always ask them "Why"?. I mean if a muslim quotes the Quran to ME and I tell Him not to bother because I dont believe it, I CAN tell him why I dont. So if a person tells me they dont believe the Bible, I assume that they have, what for them is a good reason. I ask them what it is. If they just say something about "everybody knows the bible is full of contradictions and/or its just a fairy tale", I want examples. I mean the bible is NOT like ANY fairy tale or legend from ancient times. They just dont read that way. If they want to bring up a percieved "error" in the bible, I will try to explain it as best as I can. After all, the real question is: Is the Bible Authoritative? Can it be trusted in what it reports? Examples: There has NEVER been a demonstrable historical error proven in biblicial writings. If the Bible says a certain King ruled at a certain time, in a certain city, then you can take "it to the bank". Now there are many historical stories in the bible that we cant verify, but WHERE we can verify, it has ALWAYS proven itself to be right on target. Many archeoligists have taken the Bible as their starting point when trying to find certain cities. They've never been dissapointed. There is also the fact of fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. The Bible gives many detailed prophecies of the fate of certain cities, peoples, and even individuals. We can verify many of these prophecies and KNOW when they were first recorded. And then find their fulfillment later in history. Now if these things happened just like the bible said they would in the past, it is safe to assume that the prophecy's that are still future are going to happen also. If a person knows something of all this and chooses to STILL not believe or even want to consider believing in the Bible, that is their choice of course. But Christians, look at it a different way. When they still quote the bible to a person who chooses not to believe in it, it is because the Bible describes itself as "sharper than a two-edged sword, piercing the joints and marrows of the soul" (loose translation). And God says, "My word will not return unto Me void, but will accomplish the purpose to which I send it". So we believe that God is going to use His Word to accomplish His purpose REGARDLESS of the state to the unbelievers heart. And by the way, I never have heard a really GOOD reason why a person would reject the Bible. Most honest objections have reasonable explanations. I know that you say in your "details" that you dont feel any need to believe in God, and that your "fine" with death being the end of it all. Im sure in your heart of hearts that that is not true. God has put Eternity into our hearts, and we all LONG for something better. It would be a shame to find out a few seconds after death, that eternal happiness and fulfillment WAS within our grasp, and we failed to obtain it because of pride or indifference....Would it be ok if I prayed for You?...Take Care and Good Luck.....theBerean

Answer 2

Sadly - this type of thing goes on everyday.

There is no evidence to support the claims of the bible. Not some remote historical fact - that's not what I'm talking about. But about the actual claims, the second coming, the resurrection, creation or prophecies. Just because some historical details can be proven doesn't make the whole things true.

Which is why Christians state the bible proves itself - there is nothing else out there that can.

I would like to think that all we know about God isn't stuck in some book. Or that God couldn't be a little more creative and less contridictory.

Answer 3

You have done well with this.

Many people want "proof" before they believe. That is understandable. But the Bible says you must believe first. John 3 is the classic exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus (the teacher of Israel). Nick was trying to "understand", but Jesus told him that he "could not understand" unless he was first born again. The way to be born again was to believe. (its a little more involved than that) Only those who have the spirit of God within them can understand.
Its not exactly circular reasoning, but similar. You have to believe to understand, but you don't have to understand to believe. To someone who does not want to believe-it is a road block, but not to those who desire to believe. God made it easy.

Look at how we date fossils and rocks. Most people do not understand this, but they believe it. Fossils are dated be which geologic layer they are found in. The layer is dated by the fossils found in it. It is a little more to it than that, but basically it is a circular argument. The geologic chart was set up around 1830 (before radio-metric methods) and "assumed ages" were assigned to each layer based on which "index" fossil was found in it. These ages were "assumed", for there was no way to test them back then. This method of dating remains to this day and all radio-metric methods of dating are "calibrated" to meet this 175 year old method, and if they can not match they are discarded as faulty data. Sounds incredible-but thats how its done-and people "believe" it with absolutely no evidence.
Could it be that this kind of reasoning is what is stopping you from accepting the "possibility" that maybe the Bible may have "some" truth in it? If so, then, are you guilty of the hypocrisies you accuse us of?

Answer 4

The Bible is a collection of books written with accounts of how God communicated with the people of olden times [Old Testament], and how God fulfilled His promise with the works of Jesus Christ [New Testament].

I do not read the Bible on a daily basis. But if you go to mass everyday, you would notice that with the daily readings, the Bible is read through its entirety in a year.
I do not memorize scriptures although I familiarize myself with some.

You get to know there's a God because you believe God exists.

You get to realize that He really is with you thru your experiences.

I believe that salvation is for everyone.

Answer 5

Tax-man, your going about this all wrong.

I am turning away from logic. You cannot argue any point logically with a zealot.

Argue on their level. Use terms like:

Its true cause i think so.

I felt the answer, and no it wasnt heartburn.

My mom and dad told me it was true when i was a child and the idea of changing my mind is unthinkable.

You will find these arguements a lot more viable (and infinitely more enjoyable) then any attempts at logic.

Answer 6

Good job on not getting debunked.

The true circular logic works like this:

Everyone wants what is good, and everyone wants happiness, so goodness is happiness. All good things lead to happiness. So that if God is good then he is happiness. So if God is happiness, and rules all things by himself, then he is the protector of all good things and all happy things. And furthermore, if God rules all things by himself, then he rules the universe by the helm of goodness, because that is what he is. And if God rules all things by goodness, then evil is nothing.

God can do everything except evil.
So evil is nothing.

A good man can do anything he wants,
Because no matter what, a good man would never do evil.

There's some real circular logic for ya guys. Hope you enjoyed it.

Answer 7

The problem is your looking for mental confirmation, before anything has even touched your heart. You do not accept because the Bible says so. You end up accepting because something in your heart tells you that it is true.

When I read the sermon on the mountain, I was literally amazed. The author seemed to know me. The words seem alive, and the author seemed alive. My mind openly wondered, how could this be, but I was willing to accept the confirmation that I was receiving in my heart. Do you trust your heart?

Answer 8

How old is that fossil?
75 million years.
How do you know?
It was found in 75 million year old rock?
How do you know the rock was 75 million years old?
Because it had a 75 million year old fossil in it.

Simplistic, but yep, I've seen that before....

Answer 9

I don't take it at face value because it's something you made up. I've never heard any Christian argue like that.

Answer 10

Yep - It's funny how a 4 year old can understand it but YOU can't...