To atheists who claim to know about the past: Were you there?

Question

Dr. Ken Ham, president of the scientific organization Answers in Genesis, has pointed out a fundamental flaw in the evolutionist and gravitationist arguments: they're all based on assumptions about the way the world was before humans were even alive! From Stephanie Simon's "LA Times" article:

'"Boys and girls," Ham said. If a teacher so much as mentions evolution, or the Big Bang, or an era when dinosaurs ruled the Earth, "you put your hand up and you say, 'Excuse me, were you there?' Can you remember that?" The children roared their assent. "Sometimes people will answer, 'No, but you weren't there either,' " Ham told them. "Then you say, 'No, I wasn't, but I know someone who was, and I have his book about the history of the world.' " He waved his Bible in the air. "Who's the only one who's always been there?" Ham asked. "God!" the boys and girls shouted. "Who's the only one who knows everything?" "God!"

After all, the only way to learn about the past is from people who were there!

Obviously the only source for reliable information is from people who actually observed the event in question. And since God is eternal and omnipresent, he's the ultimate eyewitness!

So, since no human records exist for prehistoric events, the only way we have to learn about those times is from someone who actually was there--God! Therefore, it is an unavoidable fact that only texts claiming to have been written by God are a reliable source for information about the world prior to a few thousand years ago. Checkmate, atheists.

From the end of the "LA Times" article above, Ham's point: '"So who should you always trust, God or the scientists?" The children answered with a thundering: "God!"'

Wise words. Atheism can now be considered disproven.

Adam B: If evidence is so reliable just because it's been around for so long, then shouldn't God be the ULTIMATE evidence, since he's been around longer than anything?!

Hot Carl Childers: Maybe if policemen relied on fallible forensics less often, and on an infallible God more often, they wouldn't get things wrong so much! The science of man is nothing before the word of God. Detectives should put away their magnifying glasses and take out their Bibles.

Dellow: We know God exists because Jesus told us so. And we know we can trust Jesus because he is God, and God wouldn't lie to us, by definition. What's so hard to understand about that flawless logic?

Answer 1

Fundies claim to know about the future. Have they been there? Oh, I didn't think so.

But the past can be known by the traces it leaves. The future has not left us any traces. If you want to believe stuff about the future, you just have to take it on faith from some preacher who hasn't been there either.

After all, the only way to learn about Heaven and Hell and stuff in the future is from people who were there and came back to the present!

P.S.: What qualifies the advocacy organization "Answers in Genesis" to be called a *scientific* organization? Do any scientists call it one? Hmmmm.

Answer 2

If only you were as smart as you think you are. "Answers in Genesis" isn't a scientific organization, it's the opposite: an organization that tries to inject Biblical quotes where they don't belong. You're using a form of broken reasoning called "begging the question"; you can't use the truth of the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. As for your question about how we know things when we weren't there to see them: evidence. Things that happened in the ancient past left behind evidence that we can see and evaluate, just as footprints indicate the passing of an animal even though we didn't actually see the animal make them. Now take your "checkmate" and go back into the shallow end of the pool.

I'll say it again: your argument assumes that which it sets out to prove, i.e. the existence of God. This is called "begging the question," and it's a classic logic fallacy recognized all the way back in Ancient Greece. You are making a bad argument. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $100.

Answer 3

Have you taken your meds today?

You cannot use God to prove God exists.

Eyewitness testimony is inherently fallible. To claim you have a book chock full of the words of an eyewitness from thousands of years ago is absolutely ludicrous on its face. That, m'dear, is not evidence. Nice effort though.

And teaching children to be rude in school is unconscionable. Disrupting the education of others to impose your own beliefs? There is absolutely nothing redeeming in such an action.

This is what extremists do all over the world. You should not receive religious education in a publicly funded institution. Anywhere. You should not feel put upon because it doesn't cater to your specific beliefs.

Remove the children from secular school and send them to private religious schools if the curriculum is offensive to you.

Answer 4

Actually all you have is a book written by men over a period from about 600 BC to about 327 AD. It sure was not written by God and is not historically accurate or error free. Your Dr. Ken Ham is very, very wrong in his argument. I also question the mans credentials. An honorary degree in literature from Jerry Falwell is hardly something that inspires confidence in his knowledge of history, biology, paleontology, geology, physics or even knowledge of the bible. Certainly not .

Further reading
http://www.bibleandscience.com/otherviews/ham.htm
http://www.geocities.com/darrickdean/khr.html

Answer 5

UMMM a flawed argument. You base it on a 'god' that has been written about by 'men' in books written by 'men' - true that to argue 'were you there' is a redundant statement and an easy cop out, but HISTORY is also written by 'men' and there are different versions of history The Uk, offers a very different perspective on the 'british empire' compared to The USA. I suggest you do some serious and intellligent research to the subject matter, before spouting off in a direction that is ultimately flawed.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnIqV5.KEzI3mOPN9DDVD0Hsy6IX?qid=20070303095028AA4jBKG

Answer 6

You think that atheism is disproven because a bunch of Christian children in a classroom, who are vulnerable and believe anything a trusting adult tells them, say that they'll only listen to God? (When obviously, they've been TAUGHT to think that way by their Christian PARENTS?)
The Bible is a book that was written by a bunch of people who hallucinated and heard voices. That's schizophrenia, not God. I'm not going to base my beliefs on the writings of a bunch of mentally ill people who lived 2000 years ago. You go ahead if that's what floats your boat...

Answer 7

Good Grief. I really don't know how to respond to this. I'm assuming that you are one of the little boys or girls that Dr. Ham was talking to. Please ask your mommy if it's OK for me to answer you.

Edit:

I just went to Dr. Ken Ham's website, Answers in Genesis, and there is an alert stating "technical difficulties". In light of your recommendation that police detectives should put away forensics and get out their Bibles instead, I'm left wondering why God hasn't done a better job of maintaining this website?

Answer 8

Good.

Next time you get seriously sick, don't ask a scientist to help, ask God instead. Because, after all, God knows everything.

That way the limited medical resources of the world could be redistributed to people who need them and appreciate them.

Win-win situation.

[Edit] Your question to Dellow asks what is wrong with your "flawless" logic.

It's circular.

Answer 9

Of course, and when one finds a ruined castle and there is no book from GOD telling you it used to be a castle, there is obviously no way to draw the conclusion that it used to be a castle.

Furthermore, you've no evidence that there is a god at all, so unless you can come up with some pictures of the Mister Cloud Sitting Moustache Twirler, you're in no position to be saying 'checkmate' to anyone. :)

Answer 10

I'm sorry, your right the earth has four corners

"Revelation, chapter 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. "

And dragons can knock down stars
"Revelation, chapter 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; "

I shall never doubt again