Christians, I would like to discuss this, so I will word this as respectfully as I can.?

Question

I don't understand how the God of Abraham is seen as kind, good, and loving.

I don't understand why "unconditional love" isn't paired with unconditional forgiveness.

I don't understand why, if Jesus was sent to atone for sins, it wasn't just over with right then.

I don't understand how something that supposedly created us can hold us in such contempt.

I don't understand why any of this would have happened, from the Adam and Eve story on, if God was truly omniscient.

I don't see how free will can exist with an omniscient creator.

Kitkat, unconditional means without ANY conditions...

So, people keep talking about a parental relationship here, that we are mere babies. I could accept that, if I had felt that my own babies were not worthy to be in my presence. If I felt that there was something basically bad about my own children, I might have an easier time with the whole miserable sinner bit. But I see good when I look at them. I get annoyed with them, yes, but I would never send them away forever, especially for disagreeing with me.

Answer 1

good question, also someone also answer, when you get saved why do bad things continue to happen?

Answer 2

These are awesome questions (seriously)!!

Let's see, I'll take a stab at'em one at a time:

1. I don't understand how the God of Abraham is seen as kind, good, and loving.

At times, he did appear very much not those things. That's why many were awaiting a Messiah (or Christ), because it was believed that he would be an intercessor. Someone that would stand between us and a God that can't stand anything but perfection (It's believed that Christ is perfection for us.).

2. I don't understand why "unconditional love" isn't paired with unconditional forgiveness.

Well, in a sense I guess it is. It doesn't really cost us to receive unconditional forgiveness. We just have to realize that such a thing exists. It's realization that should be strived for, nothing else.

3. I don't understand why, if Jesus was sent to atone for sins, it wasn't just over with right then.

I think it was, but we've done a horrible job in helping people toward the realization that it was. Jesus didn't contact Park Avenue to get the word out. Unfortunately, he's used us.

4. I don't understand how something that supposedly created us can hold us in such contempt.

I don't think he does. The picture I see is one that I can't truly match. The idea is that God gave his only son to die for people that truly hate him. I could never do that.

5. I don't understand why any of this would have happened, from the Adam and Eve story on, if God was truly omniscient.

He's omniscient, but fortunately not a puppet master. He wasn't surprised by any of this. I would be lying if I said I understand how his sovereignty and our responsibility come together. I don't truly understand it completely.

6. I don't see how free will can exist with an omniscient creator.

Yeah, that's toughy. Again, I don't think (my opinion) he maps our every step, but I think that it's more that he is outside of time and can see it (all of time) at once - he knows all, because he can literally see all. I think we are still responsible for our own mistakes and lives, but fortunately we can rely on someone who sees the whole picture, if you will.

Answer 3

I'm not a Christian or a believer at all but there are theological answers to your questions and they deserve a real answer.

I don't understand how the God of Abraham is seen as kind, good, and loving.
Existence and Life is better than non-existence and death. Even if life is hard it is still better than not existing. God gave us existence and protects us therefore He is good and loving.

I don't understand why "unconditional love" isn't paired with unconditional forgiveness.
It is but you have to accept forgiveness, okay let's say infinite forgiveness rather than unconditional.

I don't understand why, if Jesus was sent to atone for sins, it wasn't just over with right then.
It would have been if everyone willingly accepted Jesus as Saviour. They didn't.

I don't understand how something that supposedly created us can hold us in such contempt.
Not sure why you believe God holds us in contempt. We hold ourselves in contempt and some of that is reflected in our partial understanding of God.

I don't understand why any of this would have happened, from the Adam and Eve story on, if God was truly omniscient.
God foresaw the Fall of Man. It was a necessary part of becoming fully human.

I don't see how free will can exist with an omniscient creator.
A person can choose freely even if you can predict his behavior with a high degree of accuracy. Free will is compatible with omniscience.

Answer 4

I am not a Christian but if you would allow me to answer these questions from an islamic point of view. I'll try to be as brief as possible :S:

I don't understand how the God of Abraham is seen as kind, good, and loving.

Could you be more specific. If God is not loving and kind than why did he give you your eyes, your hands, your legs, your mind..and the list goes on forever. The simplest thing that I can think of is the oxgyen you are breathing without even realising. From your questions I conclude that you are not a beliver. Can't see that you reject God who gave you all of these blesses and yet He didn't remove them from you. Imagine that you wake up tomorow and find that all is gone (not to mention that the ability to wake up and being still alive is a bless by itself!).

I don't understand why "unconditional love" isn't paired with unconditional forgiveness.

Whos said it's not? Actually it is!

God said in the Qur'an that he forgives ALL sins. And I can give you many examples of God's forgivness in Islam but I don't want to be long.

However, you should understand that God can forgive you if He wanted to, yet He have to be fair. It's not fair to forgive someone who doesn't deserve to as well as someone who does. If you see this as a condition than probably forgivness is conditional remembring that God is ALWAYS fair. (I don't see that as a condition myself).

I don't understand why, if Jesus was sent to atone for sins, it wasn't just over with right then.

He wasn't in Islam. Jesus PEASE BE UPON HIM is a prophet just like Mhammad PEASE BE UPON HIM. Every human being is responsible for his/her own sins.

I don't understand how something that supposedly created us can hold us in such contempt.

Need to be more specific. I don't know what you EXACTLY mean :S.

I don't understand why any of this would have happened, from the Adam and Eve story on, if God was truly omniscient.

Suppose I am a teacher and I know my students very well. I've been teaching them since their first day in school. I am going to give them a test. I know who is going to fail and who is going to succeed (they are my students) but still I need to give them a test in order to be fair.

I don't see how free will can exist with an omniscient creator.

Bring a child and put a big choclate cocie infront of him. The child have free will wether to eat it or not. You know that he is going to eat it after all.

This maybe a very simplified example but think about it:
God created time. There is nothing as past, present and future for him. Time passes only for us (His creatures). If this is so then he knows what's going to happen in the future. This is also an answer to those who say who created God. There is nothing as who was before God. Since "before" is made by God.

Answer 5

I don't know what to tell you about the God of Abraham being seen as kind, good and loving... You just have to believe that. It sounds like maybe you have a problem believing that, but I don't. Maybe because I believe people create bad situations in life, not God. God loves us as a parent, even though we are always screwing up and causing bad things to happen..

Unconditional love IS PAIRED with unconditional forgiveness in the New Testament. See for example this passage from the Bible:
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." (Matthew 18:21-22)

As for why everything isn't over yet, the reason is simply that Jesus was a teacher, the Way, the Light, whatever you want to call him. He wasn't brought to Earth to do everything for us so we get to go to heaven, but rather to show us the way to heaven. If it were over right then, then Jesus would be doing all the work (not just).

Your next statement I completely disagree with. I don't believe we are held in contempt by God (maybe you do). No more than an adult watching a child screw up. I don't know about you, but contempt doesn't come to mind in that situation.

And as for God letting things happen even though he's omniscient, I don't see your reasoning. Just because you know something is going to happen doesn't mean you will change what happens. He lets things happen for a reason. Even though God knows the outcome, he wants things to develop so that we may use free will to make our own choices without God telling us how it's going to end for us. He knows what path we will take, but the point is... we don't know it...

Omniscience and free will aren't mutually exclusive. Especially because we are talking about the omniscience of God and the free will of man.

Now if you had asked whether God has free will, then it might get complicated. If he's all knowing but lets everything run its course, then does God really have free will? That's an interesting question to ponder! :)

Answer 6

First off, these are largely man's words and our definitions. God is kind, loving and good - to those that acknowlege Him, and even to those that do not.

We are mere babies - how many of us got upset that our parents did not love us - when their ways were beyond ours and we could not understand.

Unconditional love is paired with unconditional forgiveness. It is us who put the conditions on it and refuse to accept it.

Jesus' atonement has taken care of all of it - it is over - but again, we reject it.

If these are conditions, then there is no way around it and we need to conclude that it is not unconditional - but that is again our words. We would rather just continue on ignoring God, doing as we please in our free will and then blame God when we reject Him.

Free will - God knew from the beginning what would happen, and He did it anyway. Is that not unconditional love - to go ahead with something you know will break your heart - figuratively - because you also know that there are those who will share in your joy?

Answer 7

God is good and loving. That is why He refuses to allow people to continue in their destructive behavior...especially people who think it's a good idea to burn their babies to some stone statue.

I am a parent...and a grandparent. I love my children "unconditionally"...that is, all they need do for me to love them is just be. However, I do impose conditions when they misbehave. I'm sure God is at least as good a parent as I am.

I'm not sure I understand why it wasn't over with right then, either...but I'm sort of glad it wasn't...otherwise, I would have been left out.

God is omniscient...people aren't.

Knowing ahead of time what your kid is likely to do is not the same as making him/her do it.

I realize that these answers are "less than satisfying", but you have asked a list of very difficult questions...these are questions Christian scholars have broken their teeth on for centuries. Thank you for being respectful and polite with your questions...and I do hope you will find the answers that you seek.

I will remember you in my prayers....

Answer 8

Well, I'm not technically a Christian, though I grew up in a Christian-esque cult and I'm pretty well-versed (ha!) in it.

God is good. Period. Any of this so-called hypocrisy or contradictions over his/her/its nature is based on the fact that "Christianity" has picked up a lot of nasty habits and lies over the years.

The Old Testament is pretty much metaphors, myths, and allegories, with a little apocryphal stuff thrown in. Apocryphal does NOT mean end-time or prophetic--it means "taking away the curtain", i.e. the curtain covering CURRENT events. It illuminates what is going on at the time. Since it was written some time ago, it illuminates stuff that is now in the past.

God will forgive you for anything, without you even asking. However, the idea of repentance is very different. For this to work, you HAVE TO make a commitment to changing your ways. Forgiveness is pretty much useless unless you change afterwards. As far as being "sent to hell"--nope. God sends you nowhere. Forget the idea of God as a separate ruler, some big bearded guy in the clouds. Rather, think of God as the innate goodness in everyone, or a conscience, or a spark of divinity in someone. If you "go to hell", you're separating YOURSELF from God. Repentance is about getting your relationship back with God. But God is internal, since we have a little God in each of us, but also external, as we're part of the universe as a whole, which can also be thought of as "God."

God doesn't hold us in contempt. Only humans and evil theologians who thought up crap like "original sin" and "women shouldn't speak in church." Some of the stuff in the New Testament that doesn't make sense...was made up in around 3-400 as a way to keep people in line. Christianity had moved beyond its original spiritual roots to something much more sinister, something used to ensure political control, social order, and a heavy flow of cash, goods, and services to the Church.

Adam and Eve--a metaphor. And Hell--also a metaphor. Hell and Passion plays were thought up in the Renaissance, and most of the ideas on Hell were taken from Greek and other Pagan sources and Dante's Inferno. The Rapture was thought up by the Millerites, a weird little group that eventually turned into the Mormons, after a few failed guesses as to when they would be whisked into heaven by their rope belts. Their prophecy was a little off.

Free will exists just fine with an omniscient creator. Have you ever heard parents complain that they raised their kids right, and then they go off on their own and just do whatever they want? Their children, once independent, are free to do a lot of what they please, as long as they don't get caught by the authorities or something like that. Now, with this, you get into tricky theological debates, like, is God a "clockmaker," just setting the world in motion and leaving it to run on its own, or is God into "predestination," where everybody actually just does what God plans with no free will of their own. People quibble over this a lot--it's hard to reconcile "free will" and "omnipotence" when you think that people are very hurtful and evil sometimes, but they still have the potential to be good. You have war, but you also have war heroes. So, it's open to some interpretation.

Personally, I find the idea of karma much easier to fathom. People set themselves on their own paths, to work out their own destinies (and rewards or punishments.) Which also includes reincarnation.

And early Christians most likely believed in reincarnation, BTW, just like other Pagan groups (and Christianity is definitely Pagan, though it often claims not to be.)

If you poke into the stuff that seems controversial and weird and stupid about Christianity, you'll usually find that this is the stuff that has been inserted by misguided or downright evil "Christians" with far more influence than brains.

Check the true history of Christianity! Jesus was a cool liberal guy, and God is good. Anything else is just garbage inserted in the very flawed "religion" of "Christianity."

Answer 9

Great Questions...

> I don't understand how the God of Abraham is seen as kind, good, and loving.

Have you ever breathed air? Well that's His. He gave it to you. He gave you life. He formed you in your mothers womb as the bible says. He knows the number of hairs on your head. If you don't think giving someone existance, life, breath, and all of the things in this world is not kind, good, or loving, then I'm not sure how you would define those three words.

> I don't understand why "unconditional love" isn't paired with unconditional forgiveness.

Because God wants you to love Him back. Of your own free will. Hell isn't the issue, because we all deserve that anyway. God wants a people who will recognize Him and obey Him because they want to, rather than being forced to. If you are unconditionally forgiven, then you would be with god whom you hate forever. Many times the loving thing to do is to let go. That's what God does when He passes Judgment. He lets you go to your own fleshly desires, that lead to death.

> I don't understand why, if Jesus was sent to atone for sins, it wasn't just over with right then.

In the bible, God works in Ages. The first age was Adam. That didn't work, because Adam sinned. The second age was before the flood. That didn't work, because every thought and desire of men in their hearts were continuously evil. Then the age of the Law. The Jews were made to be the most prosperous nation on the planet at that time, but that didn't pan out. Men started keeping the law for tradition's sake, not because they Loved God. The next age is the age of Grace. That is what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. This age has brought a large amount of division between those who love God and those who love the world. I'm not sure why God setup History like that, but I'll be sure to ask when I get to heaven.

> I don't understand how something that supposedly created us can hold us in such contempt.

In fact the opposite is true. You hold God in contempt by not believing in Him. Everytime you sin, it shows that you are making yourself an enemy of God. God created you for a purpose. That purpose is to accurately reflect His image on Earth. When you break the commandments, you are rebelling against your purpose and rebelling against your God. You have free choice, and God never changes. God hates sin. He has always hated sin. He will always hate sin. If you love your sin, then you're saying you love what God hates, and make yourself his enemy. God however is patient and Kind. He has given you life to this point.

I don't understand why any of this would have happened, from the Adam and Eve story on, if God was truly omniscient.

Omniscient means all knowing. God knew Adam and Eve would sin. That is why He planned Jesus dieing on the cross before the earth was ever created. All of creation points to the single act of Jesus hanging and dieing on that cross. It is a thing that Angels marveled at. The Earth shook, the Sun stopped shining, and that Curtain that separated Man from God was torn at that very hour. God planned it so that all of Creation would worship and adore Him for being so kind and loving and good as to have died for wicked people like us.

> I don't see how free will can exist with an omniscient creator.

It works like this. We have free will. We do what we want, but we are also influenced as well. God knows all things. He sees your life from beginning to end, as He looks at the Earth from the eternal perspective. Since He knows things, He can influence people and directions. But He lets us stay in the drivers seat as long as we want. When we repent and trust in Him, we surrender our lives to Him. We allow Him to drive our life and hold on, in absolute trust that God's promices are true and that He already knows the outcome before we get there.

I hope this helped a little bit. Comment on my blog if you have any other questions.

Answer 10

God is love. Unconditional love is paired with forgiveness(the only conditions on that are that one not blaspheme the Holy Spirit and of coarse, one must ask for forgiveness and live according to the commandments) God never goes back on HIS word. HE decided how long man would have on this earth before Christ returns and that is the way it will be. HE does not hold us in contempt. That is absurd!! The other questions you would understand if you could understand the first line of your question.

Answer 11

Let me ask you this, is it true love if your husband married you if he had to? The same goes with God, He created us, to love us, and for us to find and love Him. We, made the choice to be disobedient. It says in the bible, for the wages of sin is death, so Jesus Christ paid the price, so that we wouldn't have to die, but to live eternally in paradise. God is kind, good and loving like you said in the first sentence, because HE DIED FOR US. God died, He became less, and died, grab hold of that. All we have to do is want it and accept Jesus, what is so terrible about that. Plus, all of this is in God's control, we all may not think that, but we don't know the mind of God. All I know is that His unfailing love we all yearn for is eternal, life saving and will grant us eterenal life in His Kingdom.