Challenge for atheists/materialists?

Question

If nothing can be true unless percieved by our 5 senses (sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing), then do our minds exsist?

How does science go about explaining abstract ideas, such as 'the mind' or our subconscience?

Or even non-abstract things, like gamma rays. Can we see, touch, smell, taste, or hear gamma rays?

"We see the effects of gamma rays, not the rays themselves"

---You could say the same for God

Thanks!

wee!

Your premise, that nothing can be true unless perceived by our 5 senses is false.
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Then God can indeed exist, no?

1. Certainly. Where do you think your 5 senses come from?
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The same place my soul and spirit came from.

"it's teh same with GAWD"

That's hilarious!

:D

Answer 1

Aha.... I think, therefore I am...
Existence is not experienced through only the 5 senses.

There are MANY MANY Things that are abstract in this world that are able to be proven... The world and our experiences are not simply concrete.

Read up some more on agnosticism, atheism, materialism... It is not as basic as your question implies....

Answer 2

If nothing can be true unless perceived by our 5 senses (sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing), then do our minds exist?

-- This is a strawman arguement. Obviously many things are true that are not perceived by our senses.

How does science go about explaining abstract ideas, such as 'the mind' or our sub-conscience?

-- these correspond to patterns, processes etc.

Or even non-abstract things, like gamma rays. Can we see, touch, smell, taste, or hear gamma rays?

-- not directly, we really don't see anything directly

"We see the effects of gamma rays, not the rays themselves"

-- of course we have strong evidence for gamma rays, and Occam's razor points to gamma rays as the simplest explaination for the evidence.

You could say the same for God
-- You can say anything, but without evidence it wouldn't be justified. Also assuming an infinitely complex god being just exists for no reason at all, immediately blows Occam's razor right out of the water.

Answer 3

The mind--our thoughts, ideas, feelings, desires, decision-making processes, etc.--is simply the result of chemical and electrical activity within the brain. The brain and its activity can be observed with the proper equipment. It's workings can be altered by the application of electrical impulses or through drugs such as alcohol, nicotine, heroin, marijuana, peyote, LSD, and many others. A person with a brain injury may experience a change in personality, loss of memory, inability to think coherently, and other evidence of the mind (i.e., the brain) being damaged. So, the mind can be studied through the physical senses. This is no mystery, it is something doctors and brain researchers are well aware of. The fact that many Christians don't know this says something about their lack of education.

Do a Google search of "gamma rays" and you will find 951,000 results, so your contention that we don't know much about gamma rays is false, as well. God, on the other hand, has never been observed. Everything science has studied has turned out to have natural, testable, observable causes, none of which lead us to believe there is an invisible entity making things happen. We are long past the time when lightning and earthquakes were attributed to God. The more things we discover that are NOT caused by God, the less need we have to believe that he has any purpose, yet believers still keep looking for something, anything, that requires God in order to happen. Ah, the Incredible Disappearing Deity...SHRINKING...shrinking.....shrinking..... ...*poof* gone.

Answer 4

you said - "
"We see the effects of gamma rays, not the rays themselves"
---You could say the same for God
"

Where exactly are the effects of God seen?

a) In the frantic activities of a bee and the vivid color of a rose petal
b) In the fossil record and empirical evidence of extinct creatures similar to living ones but adapted to different climatic conditions
c) In the tragic results of wars, famine, earthquakes
d) In the co-adaption of the rhodopsin molecule of a bees eye to the wavelength of UV light that reflects from a flower

or e) none of the above.


Our minds most certainly exist, and several definitions of 'the human senses' have been proposed to include 'cognition' or 'intellect' or 'empathy'. The five practical senses you outline are not the only ones proposed, or the only ones that exist.

Just because 'humans' do not have the ability to detect something with the 5 classical senses, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Think of electroreception in some amazonian fish - they sense the electric pulses of muscles in other fish.

We can, with scientific tools, detect both the gamma rays themselves and the effects of gamma rays.

We cannot, with scientific tools, classical senses, or even with awareness of the unusual sensory abilities of other creatures, WE cannot detect either the effects of God or God him/her/itself.

You make up you own mind about Gods existance.

Answer 5

1. Certainly. Where do you think your 5 senses come from?

2. Because some abstract ideas are formed from concrete entities. The studies of psychology and psychiatry tackle "the mind". These things can be tested.

3. Science has made models so that we can observe them. There is evidence for gamma rays.

No. You cannot say the same for your god. That's the age-old "You can't see air, but you know air exists, it's teh same with GAWD" argument. It's been refuted ad nauseam. Come on. This was supposed to be a challenge?

Answer 6

This question again? Is this a joke? No - really?

Oh. You're serious.

In the first place, God only knows who you mean by "atheists/materialists." Apparently people who believe that "nothing can be true unless percieved by our 5 senses." Is this intended to represent the sublimity of your grasp of "atheism/materialism"?

Then you inform us that the mind and the "subconscience" (good one) are "abstract ideas."

Finally, you compare God to gamma rays.

Basically, you haven't the flimsiest conception what you're talking about. At all. Maybe that accounts for the "wee!" at the end.

Answer 7

You, my dear are arguing obsolete science. Let us start with Gamma rays. That is an easy name, we see effects, they can be measured, repeated and predicted. Are they realy rays, or traveling particles. Maybe they are not rays or particles but are wavicles, or even just probability patterns. What they are is effects that are observable, measurable and able to be manipulated and dealt with. Science has learned to make mistakes, correct them and move on.
Is the Gamma ray real? no not realy, is God real? Well just like you said, no, God is no more real than a Gamma ray. Only there is one difference. Gamma rays effect real things and create measurable changes. No Gods have ever done that. Most certainly not Your God.

Answer 8

Good question.

By the way when you say "If nothing can be true unless perceived by our 5 senses" do you mean by ANY of them, or by all of them at once? If you mean by all of them at once, then you're wrong. If you mean by any of them, then alright (since we can only HEAR sound, therefore that's enough proof that it exists).

As for our minds, we''' who the heck knows for sure that we have a "mind". As far as I know, I only have a brain, wouldn't the mind be sort of the same thing? Since if you didn't have a brain, then how can you have a mind. I mean, a "mind" is supposed to be that thing when you think and hear yourself in your head? Yeah, that's our brain, not our "mind".....though they're sort of the same thing if you think about it. People have seen brains...they do exist.

Edit: And about gamma rays, I think somebody answered that for you.

And by the way somebody mention Rene Descartes' quote "I think, therefore I am". That's pretty true.

Answer 9

What we cannot perceive directly by our 5 senses, we built equipment to help us. So, in the case of our 'mind'- yes, we can detect the bioelectric functioning of the brain. We know what parts of the brain are responsible for what types of thinking, control, movement, emotion etc.

As far as gamma rays (and nearly any part of the electromagnetic spectrum)- we have built equipment which can detect it for us, and show us that it's there. So- I'd say that our senses are involved.

Strange that given the tremendous bandwidth of the electromagnetic spectrum... god only granted us the ability to see such a tiny portion of it. Not a very 'intelligent' design IMHO.

Answer 10

Within the given premise that there are only the five named senses, no minds could exist to create a question or contemplate an answer. Neither Science nor God would exist. All Existance would be questionable. Besides what's your point.

To answer your specific question: Nothing is always true. It is nothing. So, is God.

You are most welcome,

Dad

Answer 11

You can say that if you wish, but it does not make it an airtight argument for Religious faith!

I can not see Gravity, but I can predict what effect gravity will have on an object, and then test to see if I understand gravity - if not I can adjust my understanding.

We can see our minds by the way, using medical equipment, this is a relatively new avenue, so our current perception of how it works is still being verified by CT, MRI or Ultrasound.

Gamma rays were discovered by the French chemist and physicist Paul Ulrich Villard way back in 1900, while he was studying uranium. The first gamma-ray telescope, carried into orbit on the Explorer XI satellite in 1961.

I see no effects of an invisible god. I sit here smiting him, yet am not smitten myself. I see not any evidence of love in the world at large, or any group pretending to follow him keeping to any of the commandments they tell me to follow.

I can find many scientific explanation that accurately explain the world around me but not a single entry in the bible that makes adult reading matter - its a child's story, somewhat out dated - and there is much more evidence to suggest that man created god in his image, rater than the opposite you like to believe.

If god was so good, why would he wipe out whole sections of his creations to protect his one small beloved people, to then desert them 4000 years later?