What do you think of this recent exchange between a theist and atheist?

Question

Atheist: "All life is the work of god, it doesn't just happen by accident?"

Theist:; "Correct."

Atheist: "So god plans? He knows every life that was, is, and will be?"

Theist:: "Yes, god is omnscient. He exists outside of time and knows all."

Atheist: "Would god ever purposely create life simply to destroy it?"

Theist: "Possibly, perhaps to teach a person a lesson."

Athest: "So, god might allow a child to be conceived with a horrible birth defect, let it suffer in agony for a year, and then take it's soul to heaven? This sound cruel!"

Theist: "Well, human suffering is the price we pay for original sin. Also, god sometimes teaches people by exposing them to very difficult ordeals."

Atheist: "I see. The infant is just an innocent victim? Suppose the infant had been severely deformed Siamese twins?"

Theist: "Umm... well, double the lesson I guess. I dunno... god works in mysterious ways."

Atheist: "Mysterious planning to teach lessons? Fascinating."

Theist: "Uh, yeah."

utuk,

Any person with a high school education could ask the rational questions posed by the atheist, but you're saying the theist needs to have a degree in theistic philosophy to defend the system of beliefs he bases his life on?

This pretty much sums of the mentallity of every Christian I've ever met. They casually believe almost anything they're told in the name of Jesus, and what they do comprehend, they comprehend in the most dogmatic and superficial ways possible. As soon as you make them THINK logically, the contradictions end up making them sputter incomprehensibly, or they just fall on to some comforting bible verse.

A fine way to navigate the moral and ethical seas of life.

Answer 1

Sounds like an extra twisted way to teach a lesson - putting a sentient being through that kind of misery just to teach OTHERS some lesson. What did that baby / those babies ever do to deserve to be sacrificed as "a lesson"?

Answer 2

Sounds a little contrived to me. I suspect you made it up to make a point. I think it raises a LOT of issues. One of the big ones is is death a bad thing in God's eyes? It's a passing from the physical life to the spiritual one. Another issue is why do people have deformed children? God created the body to work in a certain way. When we "sin", say we smoke heavily during pregnancy, is God supposed to reach down and stop the consequence? Sometimes He will, but his work is mostly redemptive. A lot of good can come out of an earthly tragedy. His will was never for us to suffer, but the introduction of sin into this life brought consequences. If I throw myself off a building, I will get hurt when I land. Would you call that cruel? No, you would blame it on the person who jumped. If I pushed someone off that same roof and he died at the bottom, would you call God cruel? No, you would blame it on the person who pushed him. What you're implying is convenient for you. You want a God that allows us to live life however we want and keeps us from suffering the concequences. Instead, God gives us freedom to live life the way we want and redeems the concequences, turns it into something good.

Answer 3

God does not make mistakes. It might not be fun and it might not be fair, but God allows a lot of suffering to mold us.

This is one of life's hard issues. Would you love God if your life would be "perfect"? Which do you value more - that which cost you great deal of blood, sweat, and tears, or that which cost you nothing? The things in which we invest are the things that we care the most about. Suffering is never enjoyable, and yet we have heard the expression " no pain, no gain". The idea of gain is intimately involved with the purpose of suffering, but it is not true that suffering is the only source of pain.

Jesus Himself knows something about suffering. The Bible tells that God made the captain of our salvation ( Jesus ) perfect through suffering ( Heb 2:10 ). It is amazing that anything had to be perfected in Jesus Himself, but there are things that cannot come any other than through suffering. Jesus had to take upon Himself the nature of the seed of Abraham ( the Jews, and later the church ) in order to fully identify with mankind before He was crucified. The Bible says that in all things Jesus was made like unto His brethren ( Heb 2:17 ). He allowed Himself to thoroughly experience all that we suffer, so that He completely identified with us and our circumstances.

Without any hardship, the house build on rock may not look any different than the one built on the sand. Those who have given their lives for the Gospel or been persecuted for Jesus'sake will receive a special blessing and have a reason to rejoice. If we suffer here, Gd has the whole eternity to make it up to us. This is not our final home, we will never be totally happy here. We are longing for more, something is missing,we are hungry for something...something that this world cannot give to us...no matter how "perfect" it is.

If our faith is the most important thing to us, we may be given the opportunity to demonstrate it. Suffering and hardship may provide just that for us. God allows a lot of pain and suffering for His purposes. But what I have learned, together we are better. We are here to help each other out.

Answer 4

Sounds typical. An intelligent, possibly educated atheist who has prepared his argument in advance hits up a theist who has never really thought about the issue, has not read up on popular theological opinions on the matter, has not taken any time to prepare a rational answer, and has no other qualifications than the fact that he believes in a god.

Try taking that same argument to a theistic philosophy major and see what kind of exchange you get.

Answer 5

Heres a utilitarian answer for you, the suffering experienced is outweighted by the good it causes ( perhaps in allowing a virtuous response in others.) Furthur, since god can know a persons character before they are born, he could choose to make those suffer who would agree that their suffereing was of net benifit and so agree to it ( remember that god can reward them after the fact, explaine the reasoning, etc). Theoretically, there may be no such thing as undeserved ( or in the case of innocents unaquised) suffering, even if the aquisance is retroactive, and given gods supposed omniscience, it is also possbile that all suffering leads to a net gain over non-suffering.
I didn't buy it as I don't see god ( whom I doubt exists) as a utilitarian.

Answer 6

God allowed Satan to kill all of Job's family, servants and livestock, and to cover Job with boils to prove that Job would not turn his back on God.
This wasn't just a competition between God and the Devil. God doesn't have to prove anything to Satan. It's a lesson for each one of us and it is still relevant today.
No matter what the circumstances, our love for God is to make love for anyone else seem like hate. Job grieved his loss, but still said "the Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord"

Answer 7

Make me sputter.

If you don't belive in something why are you talking about it ?
A Christian is commanded to spread the Gospel of Christ.

What's your "agenda" ?

We can all set up scenarios in conversations or even quote scripture out of context for our own devisive ends, which is usually "self " and ego.

Make me sputter, I am a Christian. E me.

Answer 8

law law is law on both sides of a sides war
above such law law it is notably grace us
above a servant is neither of two servants

POINT: Grace is neither of two Mt 22:36-40 laws,
for the second(law) is notably like unto the first(law),
and in Rom 8:2's law law the first is sin and death.

The GRACE of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

Answer 9

I've been in similar conversations.
If a child has to suffer to teach me a lesson, I'd rather not learn that lesson.
It's an awful way of thinking.

Answer 10

and some of them truly love and believe that the bible has been misinterpreted and that all people are here to live in love, out of love, no matter who they love.