This is an argument against creationism, please offer a rebuttal?

Question

It is really a question about empirical data and a body of evidence. When talking science such as evolution or chemistry etc, an investigation is initiated into the question of why something is what it is or the way it is. Only empirical data is acceptable as an explanation and it must perforce be verifiable. While it is true that this approach has yet to explain everything, it does however create a growing picture of the way things really are. In the context of spirituality, there is no empirical data whatsoever. There are no facts, verifiable or otherwise that would lead one to the conclusion that a particular belief has any validity at all. All belief systems require 'Faith" for the simple reason that there is nothing to substantiate them. An easier way to view this is with a metaphor. Lets say religion and science both represent shirts. While it is true there are holes in the shirt of science, it is also true that they are being knitted shut every day with new information and technology and someday, probably soon, it will be a whole shirt. Religion, on the other hand, simply asks that you believe a shirt is there. If your intellectually cold, which will you choose to protect you?

I'm sorry. By spirtuality I meant religion. Two different things, I know

Answer 1

No, there is no rebuttal.

You're trying to use logic to refute an emotional position.

It cannot be done.

You can't reason someone out of a position they did not arrive at reasonably.... they were BRAINWASHED to believe.

The only way out is rather unpleasant... but since their belief is based on EMOTION instead of logic, emotional arguments, ridicule, insults, and mockery are the best tools you have. You might appear cruel, but TOUGH LOVE Is what these theists really need.

Good luck.

Answer 2

This is an awesome question, well thought out.

My concern with science, is that while the holes in the shirt are being knitted, the shirt is growing longer and longer, and that as it does, holes are being created, and I am wondering when, if ever, it will stop growing, and be whole. That shirt is ever evolving, and while thats nice, it is a concern. I want that shirt to eventually stop and be all encompassing.

Now, with my faith based shirt, the one I cannot see, but merely hope to be there, does it have an end? Yes, at some point there will either be a shirt, or there wont be (Death and afterlife)

So what harm does it cause me to wear the imaginary shirt, and realize I was cold, when I believed I was warm?

Answer 3

I am not a creationist, but I am a Christian. Putting all that aside, you did an excellent job of explaining how we must support a position or argument. I appreciate that you included faith, as many non-believers do not understand that even not believing requires faith.

Instead though I am thinking of your analogy, which was very good. I do research into the mind, body, spirit connection currently and your use of shirts to make your point is quite good.
Of course, you probably know I am going to tell you I disagree though...but what I have told you already. I believe if the mind believes something to be true it can make it true...this is the basis for the placebo effect...if in addition, the spirit is whole and supports the belief, in essence, a cure CAN be expected. I know that is not all proven as yet, lol...its being researched scientifically just as you explained though.

Basically...if my mind believes I have a shirt on intellectually and my spirit is well...I will likely be quite warm and cozy. If my mind believes that I will SOON have a shirt to wear...I am still going to be cold.

Hugs
ME

Answer 4

I always like to tell people that I would be first in line at the sign up counter if there were any reproduceable evidence of the validity of one spiritual belief system or another.

The nature of life is that we need the ability to test assertions and observe the results. Even if the results only show up statistically, which lowers the bar to some extent for reproduceability, in the sense that you are drawing a conclusion in aggregate, not just on a specific instance.

Beliefs in religious miracles (or religious mysticism of you wish), are the foundational underpinnings of why we are asked to believe in spiritual beings and/or a spiritual netherworld. But none has so far passed the reproduceablity test, the most basic requirement for supporting any supposition. Twist it all you like but it always comes down to this simple criterion.

What I don't understand is why intelligent, educated people living in the twenty-first century cannot grasp the fact that the world's major religions were formulated by ignorant (ignorant compared to us -- relatively speaking), nearly aboriginal human beings, a few centuries out of the hunter-gatherer stage, who envisioned the idea of controlling their growing populations by invoking the powerful eye-in-the-sky who would reward or punish them in mysterious ways for following or breaking rules set out on stone tablets.

Answer 5

When you make ball, you physically create a round thing out of the materials that suits to your needs as to what kind of ball you want it to be. Unless you are certain on how you are going to use the ball, it stays a ball without a purpose. When you know that the ball you made is for playing with it, then it becomes something with a purpose.
The existence of everything can be proven by science including its usages, importance and purpose. Of all the things that are existing on earth, only man is endowed with the ability to learn, know and understand almost everything and somehow the only thing he would continue to learn and understand is how is it that he is the only one given that ability and where is the origin of it. Faith has played a role along that line and science will continue to explore every possibility to find the reality.

Answer 6

Irish_Trout - I haven't had any, but being from the Pacific NW, I'm sure they are tasty.

Trout - why do you fish with the fly / bait that you do? What body of evidence do you have to support your use of that fly / bait? Thankfully there have been enough biologists to determine exactly what kind of fly / bait to use, with empirical data, various evidence supporting their conclusions, casting technique, where to stand, etc. Every cast brings in a 10lber!

Is science so effective that I now have no need for faith?

Answer 7

No empirical data whatsoever? You don't know your history. What is it about evolution that doesn't require "faith" to accept?
Evolution postulates a one cell beginning from which mutations developed. Yet today we know we can't cross-breed two different species or kinds of animals. The genetic structure doesn't mix well enough to be able to reproduce. There's also the problem of the lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. You have faith in your science, I have faith in God. And the shirt fits very well, thank you very much.

Answer 8

Your argument is not really an argument against creationism, but rather a misunderstanding of the line between "fact" and "interpretation of the fact". You believe that evolution can be scientifically proven, therefore it is "science". I disagree. No one has ever seen a dog produce or come from a non-dog, nor has any evidence been uncovered that proves that the dog and the cat had a common ancestor. We acknowledge that there are over 250 breeds of dog, but they all descended from two dogs - not any other kind of animal. You can make variations of many different kinds of animals, but they still all belong to their own kind. Horses produce some kind of horse. Cats produce some kind of cat. Reproduction between these "kinds" has never been observed. You can believe that it has at some time in the past all you want, but now you have moved out of "science" and into "religion". Evolution requires just as much faith as creationism.
An example of mixing facts with their interpretations is as such:
FACT: The Grand Canyon exists.
INTERPRETATION #1: It got that way by a little bit of water and a lot of time.
INTERPRETATION #2: It got that way by a lot of water and a little bit of time.


The problem with the evolutionists is that they try to erase the line between the FACT and INTERPRETATION #1, trying to make the interpretation part of the fact, which it is not.
I could cite hundreds of examples like this where the fact is fused with an evolutionary interpretation and packaged as "fact", when it is far from.

Answer 9

You're not going to receive a satisfactory refutation, and I'm glad you directed it explicitly against "creationism."

I will, however, caution you that your one assertion to the effect that: " ...someday, probably soon, it will be a whole shirt," is fairly shaky.

No doubt we will keep making the holes smaller, but it may well be that some questions turn out to be unsolvable to us, or we may run out of time to solve them. In any case, myths will never come to our rescue, nor can we fill whatever gaps we find with nonsense - so the thrust of what you say is unassailable.

Answer 10

The Bible is completely adequate by itself to serve as the guide for our beliefs and a way of living, This paraphrased version of the statement of fundamental Truths is intended only to make the official Statement more readily understood. The primary Statement,as it appears in the Constitution of the Assemblies of God, is intended to be the common basis for our fellowship and unity, or as the bible recommends,that we may agree with one another so as to AVOID divisions because of DISAGREEMENTS on what we beleieve(Corinthains 1:10and ACTS 2:42, The Bible is inspired: The scriptures of the Bible are verbally inspiried of God. It was not just the ideas that were inspired; even the choice of words was inspired as the original writers were moved by God to write what He wanted them to say. We therefore believe that,The scriptures are Gods revelation of Him self to mankind,they are infallible(never wrong) and they are the divinely authoritative guide for our FAITH, Belief, and manner of living(2 thimothy3:15-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13 2 Peter 1:21 If we do not agree that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God(2 Thmothy 3:16) and is therefore infallible and authoritative, We have no dependable standard on which to base our lives.Instead of having a guide that is fixed and reliable, everything becomes relative and uncertain. However since God dose not change as do the shifting shadows (James 1:17), we can be certain that His truth also remains steadfast, enduring all time, generations, and cultures,With out this doctrinaltruth, ALL other doctrinal statements are EMPTY and with out meaning More Importantly with out this experience, ones Life is EMPTY and without REAL MEANING.The out ward evidence, visible to others, is a life of righteousness and true holiness(Ephesians4:24; Titus 2:12) In other words it is living a life totally committed and pleasing to GOD The restoration of relationship between GOD and FALLEN mankind is the central message of the Bible..Please dont compare God to a shirt and especially one with holes in it...You are of the Anti- Christ trying to cause more HAVOC then their already is....God bless ALL

Answer 11

Your argument lost all credibility when you compared evolution with real sciences like "chemistry etc" Evolution is a THEORY. An unproven theory at that, unless you count the Piltdown Man, the embryonic drawings, the Nebraska Man, and most recently the "missing link" between birds and dinosaurs. If you don't understand what a real science is, don't try to tell me what I believe is wrong.