First, let me say that what you are saying can be compared to saying "How did Africans ALLOW themselves to become slaves? Didn't some African tribes capture and sell their own? Didn't some slaves stay with their white owners even after they were freed? Doesn't that mean that they ACCEPTED it, and were also responsible?" Well, that's a crock. To blame the oppressed for their oppression is the oldest trick in the book to be able to deflect responsibility. Now let me clear something up. What needs to be understood is how a "social system" (in this case, patriarchy and paternalism) works. No one thinks that today, and for centuries...millennia even, that men have been (ostensibly) going off to "work"...say, every third Tuesday of every month, and have been instead holding secret meetings (with a secretary, treasurer and all) on how to "oppress" women. The social system works like a machine, (and it has been "working" for quite some time) and both men and women are caught up in it...moving along, unquestioning, accepting the status quo (for the most part). Indeed, both sexes perpetuated it, but again, to blame women for their own oppression is GROSSLY unfair, for what other choice did they have? Become a social outcast, and (depending on the time and place), labeled a "witch" (and we know what happened to them), stoned, or left to fend for themselves in a culture that did not ALLOW them to "fend for themselves?" Relax, most feminists understand that it is (and was) the social system at work, that almost imperceptible juggernaut, and not YOU, or my husband, or my father, or your mom's dad, that oppresses women. I don't think it's a coincidence that oppressed minorities began to "awaken" from the poisonous sleep that paternalism/patriarchy had us under at about the same time...it was a movement whose time had come. Some people don't like the change...they are vaguely aware that they may be losing a "place of privilege", but what they aren't aware of is that they, too, benefit, ultimately, from it's removal. The story of how it actually began is quite long, I could write a book (and many have-"The Chalice and the Blade" by Riane Eisler is a good start if you want to read about it. Again, relax, it doesn't blame you for anything) but I think the heart of your question is about the male/female dynamic, and about guilt and responsibility. Men should not feel guilty, but they should understand that the purpose of the feminist movement is to REMOVE men from their "responsibility" (paternalism), so that we can coexist in true equality.
EDIT--Yevon, make sure you read carefully what I said...I did NOT assert "one group as the 'victim', the other as the 'criminals.'" I stated that the social system worked "independently" one could say, BOTH sexes are "caught up" in it. Yes, men perpetuate it, as evidenced by all of the bitter, "women need to stay in their place" attacks we see from men on here. But it is also true that women perpetuate it. I could go into detail with examples such as Chinese foot binding, Female Genital Mutilation in some cultures, etc...but that would take A LOT of time (just like explaining how patriarchy came into being would take too much time). These women, just like some black slaves, BOUGHT INTO the system (as someone else pointed out)...and who can blame them, really? EVERYTHING about their world told them that it was right, and just even. Often some slaves were given the role of "overseer" and punished and whipped other slaves. Does that mean that they were any less victims than their brutalized brothers? In my opinion, they are the most tragic victims of all, becaue they were so brain-washed, that they bought into this evil, and perpetuated it themselves. The same is true for women. In many cultures, today, and throughout history, in order to make their daughters "marriageable," they subject them to unspeakable tourtures, maiming and hobbling them for life in the example of Chinese foot binding, for instance. So were women part of the problem? Without a doubt. Were they as culpable because of their oppressed status, lack of alternatives, and "learned helplessness"...I'll leave that for you to ponder.
EDIT--Robinson-You have some knowledge of history, and that's great, but your assumptions as to how the patriarchial social structure came into being are just that, assumptions. A general knowledge of history may lead one to speculate about how it all happened, but until you've read SEVERAL authoritative scholars on the subject (and believe me, there are MORE than enough out there), and backed up your opinion with hard evidence and facts, your opinion is nothing but (rather baseless) speculation. Your entitled to it, but it's hard to defend in a truly informed, intelligent discussion.
EDIT--"Many will become aware and have at least some power..." THAT is the crux of the matter here. "KKK" members, while brought into the brain washing system from birth, also inherit a place of privilage when they grow up. Thus, they have access to "choice" when they grow up, truly oppressed people will never have the choice. Slaves for example, in order to subvert the system, could "choose" to run away, choose to secretly learn to read and write, choose to encourage their fellow slaves...all at the risk of extreme persecution (cutting off limbs) and death. Not much of a "choice" is it? Where is their "power"? They are devoid of power, and risk losing what little (false) sense of power they may have gained when they no longer conform. Certainly not to be compared to a child who grew up in the KKK, who can choose to leave, but he leaves one place of privilage for another, and doesn't have an entire social system that says that his "leaving" is wrong, because he is property and he has no right to personal freedom, or even the right to prevent himself from being harmed. It is the "place of privilage" that makes the difference. Again, in the example of the KKK, he leaves, only to enter ANOTHER (not so extreme) social system that still puts him in a position of power, the slaves rejects that system only at extreme risk. As for those that "accepted" it, or even tried to use it to an advantage, there are several psychological and sociological theories that describe why this might occur, "Stockholm Syndrome" and "learned helplessness" being two of them (the latter is particularly pertinent to the black experience, but it's too much to go into now...look it up though, it's very interesting.) And let's not forget "survival instinct." When faced with "choices" that are hardly choices at all (conform or die) VERY few will choose to risk death. Not only is it harder because they have to actually OVERCOME the brainwashing they've been subjected to, (rare enough in itself) but they have to overcome their innate desire for self preservation. This works for women, too, depending on the time and place. When social strictures are "looser" (which occured at various times throughout history, to one degree or another) there was more "freedom of movement" for women, at other times, they could be killed (branded as a "witch" etc.) for not conforming. The point is, that women and other oppressed groups DID NOT have the choices that, say, a KKK member would have, the ENTIRE social system told them that they were "criminals" (in the case of slaves) if they didn't conform, and "social outcasts" (at best, "in league with the devil" at worst) in the case of women. I really think you can't compare the two, because slaves, and women HAD NO POWER, regardless of the choices they made.
EDIT-Yes, in the case of slaves, (just as in the case of women) there were exceptions, I never "assumed" there weren't, Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, etc. And then there were the slaves (it is generally believed that there were quite a few) who never managed to escape, but were subversive in other ways. Secretly learning to read, and teaching others, slaves who were close to their masters (such as the house slaves), learning manipulate them in various ways, for better treatment, to keep their families together, etc. But remember, exceptions make the rule. And it's hardly fair to compare every slave to them and say "See? So why couldn't ALL slaves do that?" And, really, I mean no offense, but I think you're missing the point with the KKK thing. With KKK members, you are talking about a microcosm of society, and a subculture that is not looked too favorably on, at that,. Those that choose to leave can leave for the LARGER society, where they can still be accepted, (given that they're not too vocal about their past) and still have the rights and privilages given strictly for the color of their skin and sex. Slaves, AND women, could not "leave" for another "social system" where they could be accepted, your Frederick Douglas' aside. Certainly you don't blame all of the OTHER slaves, who did not manage to escape, for not achieving what the few exceptions did. And no, the plight of women and slaves are not perfect parallels, but the "KKK" member, for whom any adult member I have NO (and I repeat...NO) "sympathy" for, if they chose to stay, and embrace the bigotry and hatred of their people. Those people HAD A CHOICE. Again, you cannot argue that an adult KKK member "had little choice" when compared to slaves OR women. The comparison simply cannot be made. It may be brain washing, but I don't believe it's oppression, CERTAINLY not in the same sense of "oppression" as experienced by black people and women at various times in western society. You're actually talking about the difference between the oppressors and the oppressed. Should we say that Hitler's SS murderers should be compared to slaves and similarily oppressed groups? The case could be made (at the cost of reason and logic) that they were victims of the political climate, and were simply following orders, but they chose (again, note they DID have a choice--they could have refused to participate) to commit evil. You can't compare people who choose evil with people who are victims of it, and had little or no choice in the first place.
EDIT-MY point, (which has sort of been lost in the "KKK analogy) is that, ultimately, neither men nor women were resposible. However the systematic oppression may have started, (and I have read up on this and have my own ideas), once started, men AND women were victims of it, to different degrees, and in different ways. Men, of course, had the rights and privilages, while women had few to none, but both were "slaves" to the social system...of course, many men, the majority even, were not entitled to the same rights and privilages as others, depending on the time and place (that goes for white and black men but thats another didcussion. The point is, everyon was a part of the social system, and they could not "escape" it. As I've said, very often, women perpetuated it, just as men did, BUT I still distinguish between those that had the rights, and those that had none, i.e. the TRULY oppressed. The system is truly self-perpetuating. The point is not to BLAME men, OR women, but to recognize the power of a social system to "brain wash" ALL of it's members, and to recognize the importance of correcting a system that denies the basic human rights of an entire group of people.
2007-02-23 02:14:04
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answer #1
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answered by wendy g 7
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