SAM T Q: Atheists, From reptile to bird? Did aligators mutate after jumping off cliffs too much? Read details

Question

This should be interesting. Probably the biggest hole I have seen in evolution yet. So good, I am gonna have to ask it twice. So long, that I would recommend people who aren't patient to give up now.

The facts:
Birds are warm blooded. Reptiles are cold blooded.
Birds incubate eggs. Reptiles do not.
Birds are born with instincts to build nests. Something that if it evolved from reptiles, would have required a lot of difficult work, and it would be dangerous.
Talking about feathers, I will explain it in the extra details, because it would take up too many characters.
The bird’s bones are thin and hollow, unlike the reptile’s solid ones, and strength is required for flight, so inside the bird’s bones there are struts.
I will explain about a birds respitory system in the extra details, because it would take up too many characters.
I will add extra details that talk about a birds other small features.
The last set of details will ask the questions.

DETAILS NUMBER 1: THE FEATHERS
Feathers are unique to birds. Supposedly, reptilian scales just happened to become feathers. Out from the shaft of a feather are rows of barbs. Each barb has many barbules, and each barbule has hundreds of barbicels and hooklets. After a microscopic examination of one pigeon feather, it was revealed that it had several hundred thousand barbules and millions of barbicels and hooklets.

Most birds have an oil gland at the base of the tail from which they take oil to condition each feather. Some birds have no oil gland but instead have special feathers that fray at their tips to produce a fine talclike dust for conditioning their feathers. And feathers usually are renewed by molting once a year.

DETAILS NUMBER 2: THE RESPITORY SYSTEM
In birds there is a constant flow of fresh air going through the lungs, during both inhaling and exhaling.

When the bird inhales, the air goes to certain air sacs; these serve as bellows to push the air into the lungs. From the lungs the air goes into other air sacs, and these eventually expel it. This means that there is a stream of fresh air constantly going through the lungs in one direction. The blood in the capillaries of the lungs is flowing in the opposite direction. It is this countercurrent between air and blood that makes the bird’s respiratory system exceptional. Because of it, birds can breathe in the thin air of high altitudes, flying for days on end as they migrate thousands of miles.

On the other hand, in reptiles, the lungs take in and give out air, like bellows that alternately fill and empty.

DETAILS NUMBER 3: THE EYES, FEET, VOCAL, HEART, AND BEAK

EYES: From eagles to warblers, there are eyes like telescopes and eyes like magnifying glasses. Birds have more sensory cells in their eyes than have any other living things.

FEET: When they come down to roost, tendons automatically lock their toes around the branch. And they have only four toes instead of the reptile’s five.

SYRINX: Birds have no vocal cords, but they have a syrinx out of which come melodious songs like those of the nightingales and mockingbirds.

HEART: Reptiles have a three-chambered heart, while a bird’s heart has four chambers.

BEAKS: Beaks also set birds apart from reptiles: beaks that serve as nutcrackers, beaks that filter food from muddy water, beaks that hammer out holes in trees, crossbill beaks that open up pinecones, there is a huge variety of them.

DETAILS NUMBER 4: THE QUESTIONS

Let me sum up the 14 questions I had originally planned to ask down to a pretty simple and understandable word: "How?". This word is, of course, followed by the dreadful: "Why?".

Before you answer, I just wanted to quote something:
“If you can't convince them, confuse them.” - Harry S Truman

P.S. Just ignore the grammar mistakes, or minor mis-spelled words, this is R&S not English class.

oh genius serpent, what species of reptile did birds come from?

I truly hope you are not stupid enough to think dino's were warm blooded. And I know you are not stupid enough to mention the Archaeopteryx.

Phoenix, you cannot deny my facts. You might be able to say that the facts don't really disprove evolution, or have another argument similar to this, but what I mentioned are biological facts. Maybe you should study some biology.

Mike K, if you are talking about the Archaeopteryx, it isn't a dinosaur. It flies because it is a bird. (or it flew because it was a bird) Its fossilized remains reveal perfectly formed feathers on aerodynamically designed wings capable of flight. Its wing and leg bones were thin and hollow. Its supposed reptilian features are found in birds today. By the way, its fossils don't even predate birds, so the whole argument is pretty pointless.

(still to mike k) I also don't think you really paid attention to my paragraphs. Small neutral or bad mutations (which are the most common) has not been known to "add" new body parts, and it is not just improbable, it is nearly impossible for evolution to happen. Climbing mount improbable is an understatement, it should me flying to another galaxy to get to planet improbable.

You are absolutely right andy, there are so many flying reptiles. Like the blue J, obviously a reptile. Lol. (sarcasm) Let me guess, you think that blood managed to control its temerature little by little. There is cold blooded, and there is warm blooded, there is not even a word to describe anything between those two words. (at least not in the words I know)

Well that is an understandable answer. Now all that is missing is the instincts, and making the nests. By the way, I hardly doubt that feathers were necesary for thermoregulation. In fact, wouldn't it have been easier to have evolved hair or other methods. Why feathers, considering their complexity?

andy, I would love to only debate evolution. Tony just mentioned abiogenesis, because.... well just to see if there was really a way for everything to have happened without a God. But sure, just e-mail me. I'll give you tony's e-mail. Then you can continue the discussion with both of us.

Answer 1

*sigh*

shakes head.

Answer 2

The transition from dinosaur (reptile) to bird is fairly well understood by a variety of evidence from comparative morphology, paleontology and molecular genetics. I'll give you a few pointers so you can find the necessary research. In terms of fossils known from paleontology, feathered dinosaurs first evolved at least 180 million years ago. We know them as maniraptorans. It appears as though feathers evolved as a means of thermoregulation and serendipitously had aerodynamic properties which were later adapted for flight. Over 30+ million years a variety of feathered theropods are known, and some evolved into a type of half dino/half bird flying species known as Enantiornithians. Enantiornithians (such as Archaeopteryx) had dino heads, claws, feet and tails, but wings and feathers like birds. It took 30+ more millions of years for the first proto-birds, called Ornithurians to appear. These have some reptilian characteristics, but are much more bird like. Modern birds, known as Neornithians, first appeared 90 million years ago.

The evolution of highly calcified eggs also has been studied in the fossil record. It appears that the earliest dinosaurs had leathery eggs, much as modern reptiles, with increasing amounts of harder calcified shells throughout the Triassic and into the Jurassic.

Many studies have been performed on the comparative morphology of reptiles, dinosaurs and birds that show the affinity of the groups. The respiratory system of birds is most interesting. It appears from fossil studies that dinosaurs first evolved an air sac system of respiration and this may have been a key factor in their evolution and dominance in the Triassic and Jurassic eras, which featured atmospheres of low oxygen content (read Peter Ward's book Out of Thin Air).

Studies on the molecular genetics of bird feathers by Brusch et al have shown which nucleobases were modified when in evolution to change reptilian scales into feathers. It's a surprisingly simple process, on a molecular-genetic level. It goes from scales to condensation of scales to raised papillae, to barb ridges on papillae, etc, etc, all the way to feathers, each small step adding the capacity for thermoregulation.

So, you see, science has investigated this matter from a variety of viewpoints and found some interesting answers. Get to a University Library and read more about it, you will be fascinated.

Answer 3

Your big mistake is immediately visible: You're not comprehending the sheer amount of time it requires for incredibly slow, gradual, incremental changes to occur. "Mutations" are almost always negligibly small just enough to promote minor genetic diversity over time. No reptile mutated or spontaneously grew wings - though it's easy for the faithful (which I presume you may be?) to make such a ridiculous claim. After all, you do believe in more absurd things...

The eye alone developing in incremental stages (which are all visible in life if you look to oceanic life where eyes originally developed) takes a minimum of 250,000 years. It would take at least tens of millions of years for reptiles to become birds.

Though keep in mind that some reptiles (such as many of the flying dinosaurs) could fly, so the notion wasn't unprecedented or that alien to reality.

Go on youtube and search for "Richard Dawkins climbing mount improbable" to see a 1991 lecture where he explains just how things like eyes, wings, camouflage, etc. probably evolved and how evolution is NOT "random chance" and how it's an incredibly slow, gradual process.

Answer 4

You are wrong. Alligators build nest and incubate their eggs. They carefully control the nest temperature because they can actually affect the gender of the hatchlings. Your facts are wrong and your conclusions faulty. If you ever heard an alligator chirp, you would realize how close they are to birds.

As for your later assertion that there is no intermediate between cold -and warm-blooded, monotremes (egg-laying mammals) have lower body temperatures than marsupial which have lower body temperatures than placental mammals. A nice gradation, consistent with evolution of warm-bloodedness. The echidna can turn off its warm-blooded mechanism.

Although there are no true flying reptiles, there are numerous gliders.

Answer 5

So many disingenuous misrepresentations of the facts for example "Something that if it evolved from reptiles, would have required a lot of difficult work, and it would be dangerous.", so much intellectual dishonesty, so easy to refute but I'll leave that to the experts at talk origins. Nothing you actually provided above is even a valid challenge to evolution. I've told you before you need to lose the delusions of intellect-you're poor at presenting an argument and your grasp of biology isn't sufficient to be even disussing these things in any depth never mind claiming to be an authority on them. You actually chose the one area with the greatest number of examples of transitions-from reptile to bird and mammal but again that's just down to your lack of knowledge about this issue.


Edit-Sam we could have continued discussing these things because I was happy to discuss biological evolution but you seemed intent on discussing abiogenesis. I can refute every argument you make against evolution of species in an open debate but do you want to or can you debate evolution? You seemed unwilling to debate it previously?

Sam-I feel a discussion would mostly entail me having to challenge your misrepresentation of facts. For example in your statement above "There is cold blooded, and there is warm blooded, there is not even a word to describe anything between those two words. (at least not in the words I know)". Are you aware of the terms ectothermy, bradymetabolism and poikilothermy? They are all biological methods whereby cold blooded creatures like reptiles and fish can to an extent regulate their body temperature and in the case of poikilothermy they can actively raise their body temperature in a similar way to mammals . You evidently aren't aware of this which is a pretty basic fact of biology and what it does is fatally undermine your argument- it shows that animals have adapted temperature control mechanisms to help them survive in their habitats which shows the transition from cold blooded to warm blooded is a gradual progression rather than the giant evolutionary leap which you are trying to portray. That is only one of the holes in the arguments you've provided and space doesn't allow me to deal with the other misrepresentations.

Answer 6

I have no desire to jump off the cliff in Post Falls, Idaho. However, I did jump from a third floor window when I was 13 years old. I later thought I would just say: I fell for some guy Love for sale does anyone care to buy? A tear-filled pail with love that was destined to die. One true love worth it's weight in gold. Only through love can mine be sold. cc I survived (lol) with two broken wrists, twisted lumbar vertebrae, and a sprained ankle! Not bad for a fall! :D Peace and Blessings

Answer 7

This line of evolution questioning is already very well explored. You're a smart kid, Sam, I mean that genuinely (ask Tony, I've said it to him in IM's). But you don't do all your research and thus your questions always smack of 'argument from incredulity' errors.

Answer 8

Reptilia is a paraphyletic grouping so your whole argument rests on faulty grounds, cladistically.

Do you know what a paraphyletic grouping even is?

Of course not. I won't dumb myself down to answer your question. Intelligent people know evolution is a fact.

Answer 9

The only hole is in your understanding.

Start with faulty assumptions and of course you end up with faulty conclusions.

Answer 10

PLEASE stop with this evolution isn't real thing! People, evolution happens every single day! By your list, you clearly know nothing of biology, so stop with the spreading of lies and misinformation!!!

STOP IT!!! Just accept reality already!