Is there free will?

Question

A previous question here got me thinking. Someone asked atheists if they believed in "free will" or not. I found it odd that many atheists who responded seemed to argue that free will is an illusion, but then I've seen these these same avatars spending a lot of time on the R&S section trying to convince everyone else that theism is "wrong". If there is no free will, then how can anyone change their beliefs? Calvinists can respond too, since they have the same inherent problem.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070207132842AAJLxda&r=w&pa=FZptHWf.BGRX3OFMhjRdWE15OpSW.vElx1gCVwQJvqiRcD1SNcmXTJUwQfCHNPI1rwEeWDFGbYz_SlZK7w--&paid=answered#QMN4Xzu6UjSTqE6FnLRC7yUFgOkAAkgQKLpakUQ3hiInNilYpo1q

Answer 1

The brain works though chemical and electrical interactions. Individually, and at the atomic level, these seem to be predictable. Thus free will is illusory - you are what your brain is, your decisions are what your brain comes up with, given the same inputs, the decision would be the same.

This does not mean you don't have volition. You are the one deciding what to do, it's just that your decision could be predicted with a good degree of accuracy if the entire quantum state of your brain were known. I say a high degree of accuracy rather than complete accuracy because below the atomic level there is a certain amount of quantum uncertainty which might affect you in such a way that you did something different. This effect, though, is very small and you are still left with no free will, just the possibility of a variation in results.

This does not mean that everyone does everything the same. Nor does it mean that you will do the same thing every time. Just that if you could re-experience the exact same moment in time, you would almost always do the exact same thing.

Still, atheists try to convince theists that theism is wrong because this (and every other answer that you read and everything else you experience) alters the inputs in your brain. The next time you make a choice, this answer might affect your decision.

Answer 2

The secular belief there is no freewill is based on the belief that we can't control our circumstances, such as how we were raised, if we have a mental illness, genetics, the fact that our bodies are very limiting in general in terms of all ailments, our situation we are born into, etc. They believe these things affect us so much that we couldn't help but turn out the way we have.

But if you look at it from the perspective that although our situations can limit us, we still make choices everyday that determine who we are, our relationship with others, and how our lives will end up, we do have freewill. We can always choose between vanilla and chocolate. We can decide to stop being a theif. We can decide whether to believe in a god or not. People may be more likely to make one choice or another based on circumstances, but probablity does not take away choice.

Answer 3

There is no free will if you believe everything has been pre-ordained; a common belief in a lot of religions.
I don't believe everything has been planned by any sort of God/Gods/Aliens.
To me free will is just the right to choose what you will do next whether it be logical or not depends on how you may feel at any given moment.
Or maybe we've all been told we have free will when in fact we do not. Who really knows?

Gee, J.P., does that also apply to newborns?

Answer 4

No, there is no free will. I never said people can't change their beliefs, it's just an illusion that it's under your control. The sensory inputs from reading these questions and comments can induce changes in the brain that may cause it to reject Christianity. It's just that you have no control over it. It's definitely not fruitless to post on the board. Without the atheist inputs, your brain might never change it's beliefs.

See JP's response. He is correct.

Answer 5

Free will is the ability to overcome one's past and choose a direction not indicated in that past.

This is tacitly impossible.

Let us assume Bob is a person. Bob has never in his life heard of, seen, smelled, or been within 100 miles of so much as a single ethanol molecule. For him, alcohol is entirely non-existent.

Can Bob choose to stop being an alcoholic? Of course not. Alcohol is not part of his past. He cannot choose contrary to his past and his current inputs.

The brain follows the standard computational loop -- Current State + Input = Output & State-change.

This loop leaves no room for free will. Any choice we make is entirely predicated on our past and our present situation. We cannot make a choice against these things. Since choices are made by a neural system, these choices are effectively deterministic -- put a person back into the exact same state, provide the exact same input, and they'll react, guaranteed, exactly the same and move to exactly the same next-state.

In essence, we are nothing but glorified computers with some really nifty peripherals.

Atheists, by providing facts to the theists, hope to influence their current state (which become past states) to include facts that eventually will be the favored facts in the computation. Even if they are not favored, because the theist has been exposed to the idea, it is part of their past states and it will influence them, even if it is rejected.

You cannot escape the effects of your perceptions. They may be minimalized in comparison to other facts but they are still THERE.

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GOODZILLA: It's nothing more than the application of the Church-Turing Thesis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church-turing_thesis ). The only major step that I leave out is that there are three modes of computation possible in the given universe (ours): Neural networks (brain), Cellular Automata (Dr. Conway's 'Game of Life'), and the turing machine (A PC). All three are provably equivalent. Since the neural network is provably equivalent to the turing machine, Church-Turing Thesis comes into play.

Go to the nearest university's book store and look for the text book for whatever course in Computer Science they have similiar to 'Theory of Computation' or 'Computational Theory'. This analysis comes directly from that field.

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Loki: Yes, it does. In that case, their past still includes the formative stages of their development, that is, the stochaistic wiring of their brain in the first place. One may consider this wiring process a state-change scenario of its own.

Answer 6

In the theological sense, Calvinism does not dispute free will, only the ability to use that free will to look to God for salvation. We are too guilty to be able to give ourselves credit for choosing God. This has almost become an arrogance toward the Almighty, and doublespeak when we say He gets the credit for OUR acceptance. Glory to Man, whoopee.

Answer 7

I think there is, but only to an extent.

Edit: Quite interesting, JP. (I LOVE this guy's mind!) Can you recommend a good book on the subject? I've never really read anything about it:-(

Thanks :)

Answer 8

Of course there is free will. If we didn't have free will, we would have the same mind set and because we wouldn't understand differences, and we would act similar because we wouldn't know that we could nor could we decide. It is our free will that allows us to decide, and live life according to what we believe is right for us.

Answer 9

Well I'm not an atheist,but clearly there is free will.For God's sake you used it to write this question,right?

Answer 10

Free will is real.

Just because someone, or something (God), knows what the outcome will be, does not mean you didn't choose it.

A person could have CHOSEN something differntly, and God would have know THAT outcome.