Question for mainstream "Christians" although input from anyone is welcome?

Question

ok, first, background for the question, which as i stated is directed at christians, which is a somewhat general term: in christianity, god is believed to be omnipotent (able to do anything) omniscient (able to see everything, past, future, and present), and omnipresent (everywhere at once) and his greatest "promise" to mankind is that of "free choice" the ability to choose where you go in your life, whether to believe in him or not, to accept jesus or not, and therefore "choose" in a roundabout way, whether you "burn" in hell or spend eternity worshipping him. now, given that these statements are accurate, i ask how choice is possible if god knows everything, past present and future? IE: he already knows whether or not each and every one of us WILL or WILL NOT choose to follow him, which means that we CAN NOT choose one way or the other. our decision is already made for us. we cannot have free will or choice with the presence of an all knowing being. therefore, is god a liar ?

hopefully this doesnt delete the older details to the question =) never used this yahoo Q thing before. first off, thanks to just about everyone that has responded so far with a well thought out answer, or opinion, almost all of the responses here have been better than when i have posed this question in person to chaplains, pastors, and just everyday christians. the majority of those responses are essentially (uhhh ... no, god isnt like that, its just faith! yay!) with no real answer at all. now, reading through the responses i have to respond to a majority of the posts saying "just because god already knows what you will choose, doesnt mean you have no choice" its hard to explain with only text, and limited words at that, but you have to take into account the omnipotent part as well. given that he can do ANYTHING. then everything he did in the act of creating us has effected the "choices" we will make, and therefore the outcome in the end. which takes me back to "no free will"

Answer 1

Interesting question. I think you may be confusing free choice with puppetry. Yes, we have free choice, and yes, God knows how every one of us will choose in the end, but He allows us the freedom to make that choice without forcing it upon us. The Bible says that God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth in Jesus. He promises that if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him. He also promises that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved... as the Bible says... let whosoever will, come (not, "you'd better come or else"). God would have had to break a promise to be considered a liar. He hasn't lied but He has given you choice; you were not created as a puppet.

Answer 2

Well, reading all the answers so far, people are trying to fuse together an irreconcilable dichotomy, Arminianism versus hyper-Calvinism and fatalism. I agree with you completely. Something has to go. That's why I'm a Calvinist (not hyper-C).

Either God keeps his omniscience, or man keeps his free will. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to God. And, when we take a closer look at man, we find that he is sinful anyway, does not seek God, has a fallen nature through Adam, therefore if we take away his ability to look to God for salvation, we can find plentiful verses, in fact the whole tone of the Bible, to support this. God is in charge, we are not.

If sin permeates us so deeply, how can we possibly give ourselves credit for being able to seek out God when the Bible says exactly the opposite? That's the doctrine of total depravity, and that means that God must choose his own. Logically then, he can do so at any time he wishes, and this also fits with all of the verses about predestination and foreknowledge, and God has his omniscience. So far, so good.

As for day-to-day decisions, no theology disputes that. But if Calvinism's "free will" means everything EXCEPT the ability to choose God, then who cares whether God knows about all of our decisions or not? They all lead to the same place for the nonbeliever.

For the believer then, the person's eyes are opened, nothing to claim or authorize or accept, they just believe, and they enter into a relationship with the Lord, repenting, being baptized, joining a community of believers struggling against the sin that they still have in their lives. They want to please him, salvation does not mean force, it means rescue. It is a choice made for us because we are not able to. God would be perfectly justified in not saving anyone at all, and if everyone died in their sins we would have no one to blame but ourselves.

To claim that we are able choose God opens the door to all kinds of confusion. Is God subject to our whims, obeying what we tell him to do? God would have to "choose" everyone then, which waters down his omniscience to lower than human frailty. Predestination would not mean predestination in an all-powerful sense -- it becomes a mere plan with an uncertain outcome, no longer a decree but a wish list, if we truly have free will. I cannot subscribe to that kind of theology.

Answer 3

Let's take this analogy further:

Let's say you could foresee the future, and you could tell someone that if they did or did not do something this is what would happen at the end. So, the person who was told about the end of their life could choose one way or another, right? Especially if they did not agree with the end result. You see, it is still your CHOICE of what you do. So, God is not a liar, because you still ultimately make the choice. The difference is that God gives you the ultimate control over your lot in life. You either choose to spend eternity with him in his house or choose not to spend time with him there.

Answer 4

Dear icssichm,

I will say to you what I said to someone a few minutes ago. The bible is a book that can be interpreted by just about anyone to mean just about anything.
The only way you can be religious (a true Christian) is to accept the whole works on faith. The minute you start questioning things, you've lost, in the sense of having faith (which is what religion is all about). To explain this requires logic and religion and logic are two completely different things.
I'm sure there are Christians that know and use logic, but they probably (if they're smart) don't mix it with their religion.
That's why religions can get people to do the things they do. As you can see by the previous answers, the faithful care nothing about logic as it pertains to religion.

Answer 5

If you don't know what decision you will make, it's free will for you. If I have a dog and I put two types of food next to each other, I may know through studying the dog which one it's going to pick, but it doesn't know that, so it makes the decision and it's the dog's free will. In that example, I am out of the dog's frame of reference, so it's as good as if I don't exist.

And don't try to rationalize religion. It just doesn't work.

Edit: If he is in theory omnipotent, it only matters if he chooses to use the power. If he is omnipotent but decides that as a rule he will not interfere with peoples' actions, than it's as good as if he didn't have the power. Back to the dog example, I could force the dog to eat the food that I want it to, but if I decide not to, then the dog still has free will.

This response probably makes me sound like a Christian, but I'm not.

Answer 6

God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all the omni things you have mentioned, but your attitude on free choice is a little mixed up. We do have free choice, but it is not always predetermined by Him. He allows us the opportunity to hold the reins of our lives, depending on what we need to learn for each of His life plans for us. But our progress is also with our co-operation. However, there are times when we do experience events that happen no matter what we do, and that is when He steps in to override our ability to decide as perhaps, we lack the knowledge or understanding to choose for whatever challenge or reward beneficial to our development. Nothing is set in cement and we are given much opportunity to contribute our thoughts and actions to the writing of the books of our lives. It's a highly variable environment. There's much give and take, and a lot is beyond our limited abilities to grasp and understand. I don't think we'll ever discover the formula. He is always one step ahead of us. But I do not think anyone's future is only His way. We are always presented with many solutions and situations, that we can approach from many different vantage points. I don't feel we are little puppets totally manipulated by our Creator, which seems to be your opinion. I think you've missed the whole point of our free will truly being our own free will. But divine intervention is also true, but God is not a dictator, so I welcome experiencing His stepping in to help me, when I am truly lost. There are times when we do need His help and when we ask for His help, He is there! Maybe you need to pray more! Your faith has a few ragged edges! God bless!

Answer 7

I'm a Christian. I grew up in a Southern Baptist home, and have attended church for as long as I can remember. This is a question I've struggled with my whole life. I still haven't come up with a concrete answer. However, you said God knows who WILL choose to worship Him. This doesn't mean that God won't allow you to come into this world if you are not a believer. We are born regardless and are allowed to have free will because God wants us to love Him freely. Would you want your spouse to be "forced" to love you, with no mind of their own? As for destiny, I believe that people can change their destinies.

Answer 8

God made us free willed individuals,His Son Jesus is a light for the world,Life is a road and i do believe our lifes are all mapped out.

When i was going to school we used say our morning prayers everyday and one of the things we used say towards the end was
"Christ be before me,
Christ be beside me,
Christ be behind me"

I cant say our guardian tries to direct us to do the right thing because i dont know this but i do think God tries to give us the chance.Maybe God removes things in our path that are cause for sin.

WE CAN CHOOSE NOT TO DO WRONG.We can follow in Our Lords footsteps.

IMO.Maybe because of God the Sons sacrafice we no longer have to win promotion to get into heaven,maybe all we have to do is avoid relegation to hell.

Answer 9

No, He is not a liar, but He has been misrepresented. God is love. He loves all of us equally. He sends nobody to eternal torment. There is no hell. He does not punish us, He just lets the natural consequences of our actions take place. Him punishing us with eternal torment (we are so puny and ignorant compaired to Him) would be like us beating an infant for pooping its pants. We all return to Him, no matter what. This is a learning experience, and He does not punish for doing what He sent us here to do. He is a loving Creator, not an angry destroyer.

Answer 10

GOD doesnt lie nor is HE the son of man that HE should repent. yes its not complicted at all. YES HE knows all including Who will choose HIM but HE has given the choice to mankind to choose life or death its just simple as that. HE said HE WISHED THAT None will perish but that all will come to the full knowledge of HIM which means HE already knew that alll would not accept HIM.