For Christains, why did the Reformers get rid of the sacraments?

Question

If the early church was heavily influenced by Jewish thought, and in Judaism to ask God to "remember" is to ask that He make present once again that, which was in the past (ie to ask God to remember his mercy of old is to ask him to make that same mercy manifest in the present), then how could Luther and other reformers claim that the sacraments, long celebrated by the Great Church and never questioned even by the heretics of the first centuries of Christianity, were nothing but outward symbols of faith and not mysteries given to us by Christ so that He might continue to make Himself and His salvation manifest for us today...? If in Matthew 28 there is the explicit command to baptize, and in John 3, there is the explicit statement that one must be reborn of water and the spirit, how could the reformers deny that even the scriptures point to rites that bring about the grace they signify (and not by man... but by the power of God working in His People)?

The point is that even though the reformers kept baptism and communion, it is completely out of harmony with the theology of the early church, with it's emphasis on the grace that God gives through the liturgy. To Luther Baptism was only a sign of one's faith, something one did to increase one's faith and not something that actually brought with it any grace.

Yes, the Catholic Church instituted the Inquisition and was okay with handing "heretics" over to the secular authorities (who then put those deemed heretics to death). And yes, that was not good. But we are talking about Sacramental Theology here.

That we will be judged based on Scripture in not in harmony with the accounts of the judgement that Jesus gives us in Matthew 25.

As to the sacraments being only human tradition...

Baptism = instituted by Jesus (even the reformer didn't argue this)

Eucharist = instituted by Jesus (again)

Confirmation (sending down of the holy Spirit) ... who did that first? Jesus And didn't Peter and John do that too for the Samaritans who came to the faith (Acts 8:14-17)

Reconciliation ... who first forgave sins, told others to forgive and then told the apostles that whose sins they forgive are forgiven and that they have the power to bind and lose? Jesus

Annointing of the sick ... who cured the sick and had the apostles annoint the sick with oil and cure them? Jesus (look it up, it's in Mark 6)

Ordination ... ah here's one that doesn't have a direct scriptural quote where Jesus did this or had others do this. But in 2 Timothy 1:6 we hear Paul telling Timothy to "stir up the gift of God that you have through the imposition of my hands."

We know Timothy was a bishop. So, if Paul laid hands on him to give him this "gift of God," ie episcopal office, then we cn be fairly sure this was something done in the very early church around 50 AD and therefore it's not hard to conclude this was from the Lord (and the lack of "scriptural" reference can be understood from the fact that the writings of the new testament were not written to describe everything about being a Christian, which is why there are documents that are not scripture that explain the liturgy of the early church).

Matrimony = Jesus tells us that God established this one from the beginning. Jesus just reestablishes it. Paul in Ephesians reminds us that it is a great mystery ("mysthrion" in Greek ... same word which was translated "sacramentum" in Latin) because it reflects the mystery of Christ and the Church.

I am talking Luther and not the Lutheran confession today. Luther said the grace was through the faith one had in baptism not through baptism itself. "It is not the sacrament, but faith in it that justifies ... Baptism doesn't justify and doesn't bring about any advantage, but what does is only the faith in the divine promise that one attaches to baptism." - De Captivitate Babylonica, by Martin Luther

Matt A: The question isn't about whether Jesus would condemn someone on a desert island (an extraordinary situation... the discussion is on ordinary means of salvation) but why the reformers denied the reality of the sacraments in the light of church tradition. And, my intent is to see if anyone will answer this question in the light of the historical context. There were reasons why they denied the sacraments, reasons that had to do with what was going on in Catholic liturgy and spirituality for a few centuries beforehand, but no one has answered the question from this obvious angle. Only given me rhetoric.

Answer 1

Luther,and the other reformers were men, and did not like to insult their past, or make waves. They only dimly realized how much of what they were doing was not grounded in Scriptures, but in the traditions of men. Scriptures is our standard (by which we will be judged). Anything not in there is to be left out of true worship, and everything in there is to be followed by true believers. --Animal Sacrifices were done in the Temple, and the Almighty did not preserve the temple, so animal sacrifices are in the past. Some of the rules were for the Kingdom which was ruled by YHVH , and since they insisted on a Human king (Saul) some of those rules no longer have a base to sit on (so to speak)

Answer 2

Outward signs instituted by Jesus Christ to give Grace.

1. Baptism Jn 3:5 Mk 16:16 1 Cor 1:16
2. Reconciliation Mt 9:2-8, Jn 20:23, 2 Cor 5:17-20, Jam 5:13-15
3. Holy Eucharist Jn 6:35-71, Mt 26:26, Mk 14:22, Lk 22:17 1 Cor 10:16
4. Confirmation Acts 19:5-6, Acts 8:14-17 2 Cor 1:21-22, Eph 1:13, Heb 6;2
5. Annointing of Sick Mk 6:12-13, Jam 5:14-15
6. Holy Orders Acts 20:28, Acts 13:13, Acts 14:22, 1 Tim 4:14
7. Matrimony Mt 19:5-6, Mk 10:7-12, Eph 5:22-33, Heb 13:4

Answer 3

"then how could Luther and other reformers claim that the sacraments, long celebrated by the Great Church and never questioned even by the heretics of the first centuries of Christianity, were nothing but outward symbols of faith"

While I can't speak for the other Reformers, Luther never got rid of the Sacraments and NEVER said that they were symbolic. You must confuse the Lutherans with the Anabaptists and others. The Lutheran Confessions state that the Eucharist and Baptism are a Means of Grace. So you may want to take references to Luther and Lutherans out of the question.

Answer 4

They still have sacraments (baptism and communion). I don't believe that you need it to be saved. You need to be baptised with the holy spirit, but not with water. You do not need communion for forgiveness, but we do it in remembrance. It is only bread and wine, it is not body and blood. All we need to be saved is faith in Jesus, all of that other stuff is just worship. You don't need it to be saved. If you believe that you do need it, then you are saying that Jesus dieing on the cross wasn't enough. I think that it was.

Do you believe that if you were on a desert island with no church, nobody to baptise you, and no bread or grapes you couldn't be saved? You need to have more faith in Jesus than to think he would condem you for that. I believe that you insult him by worshipping your host. Jesus is not a cookie, he is our god.

We forgive others, meaning we dont hold grudges. Jesus is the only one that can forgive sins. None of your other examples have anything to do with forgiving sins by man.

Answer 5

Christ is the object of Baptism and Communion. I don't think he's the object of the other 5.

Answer 6

I don't know much about "christains", but remember, the catholics decided that the reformers were heretics and killed them by the thousands. Do you realy think that details like wether the sacraments are needed or not is worth all the death and violence ?

Answer 7

They did not get rid of Baptism but only those ceremonies that were man made and not instituted by Jesus.

Answer 8

well, I think the answer is contained in your question...Martin Luther was something of an anti-semite I was told...accordingly he might have not been too reverent of Jewish thought and its influence on the Church...(however thats just speculation on my part.)

Answer 9

amazing, I did not know that they had, we simply call it communion. and use the sacrament, of bread and grape juice, although many do use wine.