If lucifer had not rebelled?

Question

would there still be sin ... given that we have free will ?
genuine answers please

Gemma I am not a Christian
i am looking for answers

Avatard ? is that you

Answer 1

Goodness Pangel! I DO just love your questions - so thought provoking!

I could be petty and say that on past performance Yahweh Jehovah would have found something sinful eventually. But since you asked for a serious answer, let me think...

In many places the tree is called "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" which suggests that they did not know they were doing wrong at the time. So without the fruit (or perhaps more accurately, the forbidden eating thereof) they would not have known that they were capable of doing wrong, in other words, their capacity to act with free will in the world.

Whether the intervention of the 'serpent' was essential is unclear. Perhaps they might have chosen to test out the fruit eventually? Maybe Lucifer just hastened it along by telling Eve that she would not, as God had told them, die through eating of the tree.

The thing is, if God does not want human beings who have no choice but to always do what is good and right, why create these 'tests'. Why allow Satan to be present in Eden and hence able to tempt?

So I return to my original point. God appears determined to constantly test man. He does it with Adam and Eve. He does it with Job and with Abraham (and even his descendants). So I think that inevitably, however blamelessly Adam and Eve behaved, at some point God would produce a test that caused them to sin. For how else can Man be redemed, if he never sins?

So, yes, I think Lucifer or no, free will would have led to 'sin' sooner or later.

.

Answer 2

It's a very interesting question Pangel. The answer, I guess, depends on when we believe we achieved free will. Traditional Christian thought says that we were 'created' with free will, but one has to ask how genuine that is within the whole Yahweh-Lucifer theology.

The Eden couple appear to have been free to do anything, but free as, for example, five year olds are free, without the knowledge of good and evil. Without that knowledge, and forbidden to gain it, it seems they only had 'free will' in a very limited and almost meaningless sense.

Without the influence of Lucifer, in his 'fallen' state, there would have been no impetus to rebellion in the Garden, no original thought, no opening of the mind to the idea that "God knows you won't die if you disobey him, he just doesn't want you to be as powerful as him".

It's entirely arguable that Lucifer is entirely responsible for our 'free will' (within the theology), and since our first act of genuine free will was the act from which many people say we fell to sin, I think Lucifer the Rebel Angel is integral to the whole thing.

Not that I believe a word of it, you understand, but within the theology, I think he's crucial.

Answer 3

"would there still be sin ... given that we have free will ?
genuine answers please "

What an excellent question. This highlights that the world we live in isn't black and white. Human kind would be perfect because they would not have Adamic sin right up to our day. However - that doesn't mean the capacity for evil is not there.

For instance. I eat my dinner with a knife and fork. Very useful for cutting food. So there it is used for a good purpose. If I then went off and hurt someone with that knife - I would then be using the knife for a bad purpose.

The same is true of everything in life. For every capacity that there is for something bad to exist - the same capacity there is for good.

However - if you have a genuine belief in biblical promises for the future, we can all rest assured that sin and along with it, imperfection death and all the wickedness in mankind today will be done away with. Then - those who choose to use their free will for a good purpose will be blessed.

Answer 4

The first thing that someone should be considering is whether the idea of sin is actually real.

If God is supposed to be perfect how could She have made anything or anyone that wasn't perfect.
Think about it. The idea of sin assumes certain things about God that seem highly unlikely.

First it assumes a God who is too incompetent to organize a simple educational field excursion and figure out a way to get all of the students home safely.

How likely is this that God would not be smart enough to come up with a plan for our salvation that is going to work?

It also assumes that God must have created us imperfect if we are sinners.

One might assume that God would be able to create someone perfect each and every time if he chose to. Assuming God is capable of this, then it follows logically that we must be perfect creations if we are actually creations of this perfect God.

Unless of course you are saying that God chose to create us imperfect.

If God created us imperfect then anything that may go wrong is Gods fault, not ours. This seems a bit illogical at best so I think that we need to assume that What God creates would have to be perfect.

If this is the case and Gods creations are perfect, then nothing that we can do could change what God created perfect and make it imperfect unless we think that we are more powerful than God is.

How likely is it that we the creation could be more powerful than the creator. I personally find this idea somewhat amusing, and a bit absurd.

Religion tells us that God is perfect. If this is true then it could hardly be logically for Gods creations to be considered to be anything less than perfect.

If this is the case and we are perfect creations of a perfect God then Nothing that we can ever do could possibly change this perfection that God willed, unless we were so powerful that our choices could override and change the will of God.

How likely is that????

Think about it.

Love and blessings
don

Answer 5

I'm going to say that Lucifer is an Ancient Pagan God and got inserted into the Christian myth by Romans for who knows what reason??? The light bearer, Lucifer is the force of creativity and knowledge, this is probably why christians think his evil. Knowledge is the devil's tool lol! I don't believe in sin, I think you can choose to be nice to people or you can choose to be an as$hole, religion has nothing to do with it. In Judaism there is no Lucifer, but in Roman Mythology there is, if that doesn't make you question the authenticity of the Christian bible I don't know what will...

Answer 6

It is the devil that causes us to sin by tempting us, so I believe that we would not find sin pleasurable if there was no temptation. We would just continue to do God's will without sinning.
1 Thes 3:5 For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.

Answer 7

Original sin is an invention of the church and isn't explicitly mentioned in Genesis: Adam and Eve were just disobedient and did not know right from wrong until after they had eaten the forbidden fruit.

I think God set them up!

Answer 8

Ah...the proverbial what if question. If eve had not made Adam eat the apple, if black is white.
Given that we have free will we choose to classify actions as sinful. Is sin in fact real or do we just make it up so that we can feel good about ourselves.

Answer 9

Yes. Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's was the first sin for humans.

Answer 10

Since we all have free will, we have chosen to come to this material world by disobeying God, that means we all are Lucifer, what is the proof? this animalistic civilization. Make sense?