Question for Atheists?

Question

Don’t you think saying, “There is no God” like it is fact is a little arrogant? Humanity as a whole is learning new things every day. It wasn’t long ago when people said it was impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound. Now the accepted theory is that it is impossible to travel faster than light, but theoretical mathematics shows that it is possible to “Fold” space and time where it may be possible to travel huge distances almost incautiously. I am a Christian but I am not going to state that “There is a God” as fact, because how can we really know, that is what faith is all about.
What I do have is a historical figure, Yeshua who lived and preached in Israel 2000 years ago. He preached a message of love and nonviolence, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor. We know he was arrested by the Romans and crucified for challenging the Jewish religious authorities. I have an empty tomb, at least 14 eyewitness accounts of this man appearing to them after he was dead and buried. I have 11 people who were so changed by this mans life and death that they went out and preached this controversial new doctrine until it got them all killed. All 11 disciples died for their beliefs and not one recanted their beliefs even though it cost them their life. If you had followed a man you thought was a prophet around for a few years and he made all types of claims as to his divinity and he didn’t fulfill them do you really think you would make up a story, go out and preach this myth until it got you killed? Would you die for a lie? I have not met anyone who would have you? Just something to think about.

Marbledog - Great response, I really enjoyed reading your post.

Fra59e - Another great post, these are the exact type of posts I was hoping to receive. Those who are well thought out, well stated, and provoke thought. I appreciate it very much.

Answer 1

I appreciate the tone of your argument, but I'd like to offer a counterpoint:

"Don’t you think saying, “There is no God” like it is fact is a little arrogant?"
No. Stating catagorically that G/god/s do not exist is jumping to an unwarranted conclusion, especially if the concept of "God" is not clearly defined. Nontheless, it is not necessarily arrogant.

"...theoretical mathematics shows that it is possible to “Fold” space and time where it may be possible to travel huge distances almost incautiously."
This is not exactly accurate. In wormhole theory, the speed of light is still constant and unattainable. The concept is to basically reshape a portion of the universe to eliminate the distance between two points. This does not imply traveling faster than light.

"What I do have is a historical figure, Yeshua who lived and preached in Israel 2000 years ago."
The personage of Yeshua is not well documented. The Hebrew bible identifies several people by this name. Whether or not one of these people was Jesus, as represented in the Gospels, is highly debatable.

"He preached a message of love and nonviolence, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor."
While Jesus, as presented in the Gospels, speaks often of peace and forgiveness, his message does change occassionally.
Matthew Ch. 10
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
This sentiment is reiterated several times in the New Testament.

"I have an empty tomb, at least 14 eyewitness accounts of this man appearing to them after he was dead and buried."
Unles you have personally spoken to the apostles, you have three second-hand accounts, not 14 eye-witness accounts.

"Would you die for a lie? I have not met anyone who would have you?"
About sixty years ago, over five million Germans died for their belief in the supremacy of the Aryan race. I don't think further comment is necessary on this topic.

Just something to think about.

EDIT:
Thank you. I enjoy discussing religion with people who can do so without becoming angry.

Answer 2

> “There is no God” like it is fact is a little arrogant?
Despite much under-Christmas-tree evidence every year, there is no Santa Claus. It's not arrogant to say that.

> that is what faith is all about.
We wouldn't need faith if G-d were more readily apparent. The questions that are hard to answer are:
Why isn't G-d more readily apparent?
What has G-d been doing during the past 1,970 years?

> He preached a message of love and nonviolence, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor.
We've gotten messages from Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jimmy Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, and a few others as well. Mainstream Christians call them misguided at best, cult leaders, false prophets, ... and plenty of people have died for them or the religions or cults they founded. I would not WANT to die for a lie -- but plenty of people DO die for lies.

I am not an atheist, but I understand the viewpoint. If it weren't for Pascal's Wager, I'd probably be an atheist.

Answer 3

"Would you die for a lie?" Well, why not ask the seventeen Muslims who flew airplanes into the World Trade Center? Don't you think they died for a lie? Or do you think they really are now in Heaven with their 72 virgins? Then there are the Crusaders. They murdered their way across Europe and the Middle East under the delusion that their God would be pleased as all get out if they captured Jerusalem and killed all the Jews and Muslims there. They were ready to die for a lie. The followers of Stalin died for a lie - the myth of historical determinism. The followers of Hitler died for a lie - the myth of racial superiority. The problem is not that "I'm right and you're wrong", the problem is fanaticism, and there are fundamentalist fanatics in both Christianity and Islam. Don't you think it is arrogant for fundies to proclaim that they know what their god wants for the rest of us, and that the word "God" applies only to the particular kind of god that they imagine for themselves? Atheists seem to be more honest and more tolerant than fundies are.

Answer 4

There is nothing remotely arrogant about saying "there is no God".

It's _exactly_ as "arrogant" as saying "there are no pink unicorns".

The rest of what you wrote is really just desperate drivel. If there were a God, you wouldn't need to make these desperate arguments to demonstrate His existence.

As for not having met people who would die for a lie, you must not live in the United States or Great Britain, or any of the other countries participating in the military action in Iraq.

The fact of the matter is that LOTS of people have eagerly died for lies, never recanting their false beliefs. You think WAY too much of human beings. Try being less arrogant about this - your pride is leading you astray.

Answer 5

How about this then. I do not believe a god exists. This is because there is little to no evidence that a god exists. Unless something changes this, I will continue to believe there is no god, and act accordingly

"I am a Christian but I am not going to state that “There is a God” as fact, because how can we really know"

You're in the minority among christians here. You get my kudos for this

Other people have commented on the "dying for a lie" argument

Answer 6

I find it a little smug and self congratulatory when certain Christians use the Bible to answer questions on it's own validity...But, here's my answer: I have no problem with Jesus existing, I just don't believe he was a messiah or son of God. I have no problem with the Bible existing, I just don't think it's anything more than a mythology book. I would not knowingly die for a lie. I'm not sure anyone would. But using the argument of "Well, it's really popular, so it must be right!" is just weak.

Answer 7

So, there were ALL these people who were affected by Jesus, and only one reference to him outside of the Bible? Seems like even non-believers would have talked about how so many people believed him, or there would have been records of his trial and execution? That SOMEBODY other than his followers would have written about how this body disappeared from a tomb? I mean, wouldn't you think? It just doesn't add up to me.

As for there being no God, at this point, based on what evidence is available, I have no choice but to conclude that there is no God.

Answer 8

You forgot to mention that the closest woman to him didn't even recognize him after his resurrection. The gospels weren't written until a generation or two had past. The bible contents were voted on by a council, thus omitting some of it. Jesus and Christianity was used by greedy people to make money in exchange for "forgiving sins" and in doing so may have exaggerated maybe just slightly the life of Jesus.

There's two sides to every story.

Answer 9

How many people died following Adolf Hitler and his promise of a Reich that would last 1000 years ?
How many people died a few years ago following the promise of their spiritual leader of an astral trip to an alien spaceship parked near Saturn ?
How many people died in Europe a few years ago on the way of the winter Solstice following the teachings of their spiritual leader of the Order of the Solar temple ?
Just something to think about ...

Answer 10

How is declaring that there is a deity any less arrogant than declaring that there is not? And if there is, is it not arrogant to declare this deity is exactly as you envision him and that all other perceptions of him are wrong but you are right? You said yourself we can't really know and it's a matter of faith. Some people just don't put their faith in your particular definition of spiritual reality.

People die for lies all the time, and always have.