Calling all Atheists?

Question

How do we know murder is wrong anyway?

What about rape?

Child abuse?

How do we really know.

Well how does one know that a line is crooked if they have never seen a straight one.

Does a fish feel comfortable when it is out of the water?

Well no because the fish is out of it's natural element it's natural surroundings.

So how do we know that things like murder and rape and child molestation are bad or might I say crooked?

Because we have seen or might i say are aware of the straight line.

What is that straight line? perhaps it is our conscience. BUt where did our conscience come from and why does it seem to never be wrong?

How do we know that the world that we live in is screwed up and uncomfortable?

Well I suppose it is the same with the fish. We are not in our natural element.

Therefore I propose there is another element that we must consider exists at least for human beings.

Merely something to think on

Answer 1

1. We determined that murder is wrong as a society. Each sets their values in different ways. Death is an unknown to all. The incans and mayans used to "murder" virgins as sacrifices to their gods... This was an honor to them. In Japan, there was a law for a while stating that people were only allowed one child. IF the child was born female, sometimes they would discard the child (Feed it to something) so they could try again for a son. These people were not mourned. To them, murder was okay. In our society, murder is considered a bad thing. We don't kill each other unless there is good reason to do so. This was determined by us because life is valued by us. To others, not so much. In some tribal colonies, murder may be acceptable. And lets not forget cannibalism. If you were raised cannibalistic, would you view your "catch of the day" as murder? I think not.

2. Rape. Same concept. In some countries, women were treated as property. This is fairly common even today. Forced sexual contact is forbidden on a societal level.

3. Child abuse? Do I need to go any further, or bring up "spare the rod"? This is still a very shady subject, though as there are still lines being drawn to define what is considered child abuse and what isn't. Again, every culture values this differently.

crooked line- they don't. In fact, they wouldn't know what crooked is yet either. If you look at the analogy, the only thing that can be certain from that statement is that there is a line.

Fish- Judging by the way a fish fights when you catch it and throw it on shore, I would say they're pretty uncomfortable- bad analogy. That's called observation.

We are not aware of anything other than what our own perception allows. We make judgments based upon the end result of our perception. Harmful or not harmful. Benevolent or Malevolent... do I profit, or stand to lose. This is how learned behavior works. What you are suggesting is called assumption based upon opinion... We are not AWARE that things are "right or wrong"... we decide what is acceptable and unacceptable, based upon our experiences and past lessons from elders. When these lessons are made into common knowledge, it is passed on, and thus added to your collection of wisdom.

Concience- guilt... emotions. These are complex thought processes that occur in humans because the brain is developed enough to be concious of it. Dogs have this too! A dog that was trained not to eat out of a garbage can still has the free will to choose. If that dog eats out of the garbage can, and has been punished in the past, it will act like it (usually through cowering or avoidance of the Alpha).

And let me tell you- our concience is never ALWAYS accurate. Did you ever date someone who had to constantly ask you if you are angry or upset with them? That would be one scenario.

Ask a rich person that. Chances are they don't care, thus THEIR world is not screwed up and uncomfortable. Those words describe opinions (although its an opinion I share with many).

Sorry. This is not evidence or even good wordplay to suggest an afterlife, or that humans are out of their element. It is a good question, however in the sense that many people actually had to THINK to answer it.

SO Lets sum up:

1. Societal values are determined- not instinctual, otherwise the behavior would be universal among societies (believe me, its not).
2. With nothing to compare to, there is no comparison. IE without enough evidence, all you have is what is in front of you.
3. We are not aware... we learn.
4. We all have different value systems to adhere to, thus each person's values are based upon these systems. The terms right and wrong, good and bad, good and evil... they lose much of their meaning at this point, as they are left as opinions once again.

That is the only thing for certain. We don't know if there is life after this, and won't until we are dead. We can suspect... we can have faith... but we cannot know. Proposition dropped... I'm not convinced, but I have to say... THANK YOU FOR MAKING ME THINK!!!

Answer 2

Every person has the right to live, to feel safe and free among other things. A murderer for example deprives the poor victim from his right to live. It's actually very simple: you can do whatever you want as long as you don't mess up with my rights. That's when things start to get wrong. Sadly, not many people can follow this way of living and that is why our world is in such a bad condition...

Answer 3

"Anything that brings on negativity on is wrong. Murder, rape bring on negativity, bad feelings, sadness, and in rape's case can mess people up for life. I think that should be pretty obvious by now."

For Tucking Fypos. -
You missed the point. Negativity is a relative concept if there is no standard by which to call something negative. What if an act of rape is very much enjoyed by the rapist. What if he tapes it and many, many other people enjoy watching the tape while only a small number of people in comparison are hurt (the victim, family and friends). Then a greater number of people are affected positively by the rape. But you would still call it wrong, wouldn't you? Eventually you have nothing to appeal to except that it's "inherently" wrong. Or obviously wrong. Or by common sense it's wrong. But none of those are arguments, they are merely statements, which are subject to interpretation. Without some objective verity, there is no basis for declaring any act either moral or immoral.

Answer 4

Well look at it this way: would you want to be murdered, raped, or abused in any way shape or form? Obviously not. A long time ago we agreed that we as a society didn't approve of those things and that we'd all be better off without it. There, that's how. Have a nice life. :)

Answer 5

So many questions!

How do I know what is right or wrong? Easy. If everyone lives as if they are the only people on the planet, as some Christians seem to do, then there would be no safety and comfort in life. If people are to live without fear, then there must be rights and wrongs.

Goofus hits his friends with a baseball bat. Gallant stops Goofus and puts him where he can't hurt anyone.

Rights and wrongs don't have to be spiritual, set up by some god.

Answer 6

Abusing other people is wrong. The Golden Rule applies with or without God. Perhaps evolution has instilled it into our subconscious for the survival of the species.
I know a crooked line without seeing a straight one. I know a good vs bad meal, without ever having tasted the best meal.
Common sense tells me a fish is more comfortable breathing than not breathing.
Our conscience is often wrong...often....

Answer 7

because humans are animals that live in packs they don't attack each other because we may need there help later on and people have no natural defense except for our minds that's why we know to kill a fellow human being is wrong we have the brains to tell it's wrong and no fake fairy tail is going to give us morals were born with them not from "god" but from our parents we were taught from our parents

Answer 8

Our conscience is an evolutionary trait. We evolved with instincts for empathy and altruism. The conscience is simple the consciousness interpretting these instincts. Persons who lack empathy have psychopathic tendancies, persons who lack altruism have sociopathic tendancies.

There is no other element needed.

Answer 9

A moral code, that is, commonly held ideas of "right and wrong" have evolved over time. Richard Dawkins has an excellent chapter in The God Delusion.

Religion merely codified that which was already natural.

Answer 10

Culture. Specific people tell us something is wrong based on their personal opinion. They do it in a charismatic way, and the people around them agree and change their actions to fit this person's opinion of what is "right" and "wrong". This is passed down from generation to generation. We do not start off knowing what is "right" and what is "wrong".