Military technology question?

Question

Does anyone know much about submarines? I am a writer and i had a crazzy idea for a way China could actually be a threat to Asia and the US.

throuhg a Russian group, a stealth torpedo so quiet Sonar as we know it now can not even trace it being launched.

In the story as a conflict in Asia put on by China but looking to be between Pakistan and India esculates, the US throws a large naval force into the area only to be ambushed by the subs who launch the stealth torpedo.

The navy, trying to recover from the deadly blow to a large portion of our naval strike force (carriers and such) must try to find a way to find the torpedoes.


My question is, is it possible to make a torpedo so quiet a sonar would have next to no chance tracking it?

Answer 1

There could be in your book...

Answer 2

I've studied submarines and weapons for decades. Having worked in the industry for about 20 years, it would be very hard to develop a stealth torpedo.

There are subs that are very quite, the US has the Los Angeles class hunter, and the Ohio class boomer (missle). 15 years ago the navy had in the works a stealth hunter and boomer.

It's been 13 years + since the company I worked started work on the lead set of flow control valves for the first stealth sub. Their designs were different from
normal valves used on the other ships. They were deisgned to mask the sound of the fluids as they traveled through out the ship.

I don't know if they made more than three of this class, because they found out something you find hard to believe! They where to0 quite!

You see the ocean is a big conduit, sound can travel at long distances there.
And ocean has all kinds sounds that travel in all directions. These sounds are created by nature or mechanically.

When sonor picks up the sounds on their scopes it tells the operator what direction the sound is in and it's distance. It may also tell the operator it's origin. The scope shows sounds coming from 360 degrees,

When screen a dead zone of 400' or better shows up on the screen, what would you think you are seeing? A sub.

For you to mask a torpedo traveling at 40+ knots, there are few things you have overcome.

One: How do you mask it's screws hi whine, maybe set the motor deeper inside the weapon, line it with sound absorbing material.

Two: How do you mask the sound of a weapon running at a high rate of speed, At that speed just the friction would make sound, cavitate. A sub gets noisy at higher speed too! Maybe slow the speed down, if you don't know it's you not trying to out run it.

Three: Guidence, How is it guided, they find their target by pinging when they get close.

Four: A sub lauches it weapon floods it's tube, it opens tube doors, and fires it. All these actions have inherent noise. These would all have to be done differently or more quitely. Attaching to the hull would also mean noise too!

I interviewed a gentleman that was a crewmember of the USN Tresher, the first nuke we lost. He wasn't the day it was lost because he ill when it left and he was left at the base.

When we talked of the sub, he told me of the hazzard's of being under the ocean and how sound travels. He also felt guilty for not dying with his shipmates that day. I found it a blessing!

Get to work on solving these problems, make the torp. worked. I'm sure there are real people working on it too.

Another thing on sonar, there the active or pinging sonar, and the passive or listening sonar. Active sends out the pings and looks for reflections of the sound. The passive is the type listens to the sounds traveling in the ocean.

Answer 3

Torpedoes are extremely effective. A single torpedo can take out ANY ship as it's designed to detonate under the keel effectively breaking the ship's back.

It's extremely difficult for a ship to defend itself against a torpedo because they are fast and small and quite maneuverable. The problem is whether the submarine is able to get near enough to the ship to launch it. It's all about the stealth of the sub not the torpedo and there are some subs which are extremely quiet and able to achieve this. Diesel electric subs are far better at this than nuclear subs.

In spite of the advanced ASW technology there are always some tactics skilled submariners can use to evade and get within the screen of a taskforce. More than once the Australian navy in exercise with the US has surprised them by surfacing their sub next to the target aircraft carrier after penetrating the task-force screen.

Answer 4

You are confusing sonar with underwater listening devices. Sonar is always going to spot anything with mass within it's range. A $200 fish-finder can spot a bass, what do you think the capabilities of the USN's sonar are? As far as listening devices (which are permanently installed on the sea floor in some areas) go, if the torpedo is traveling through the water it has to have some sort of signature.

But for the sake of fiction, how about an innocent looking vessel equipped with electronic countermeasures that shawdows the US fleet and jams it's ASW electronics? Or I suppose a sub could run just under a surface vessel to disguise it's presence. The thing about torpedos is they aren't really all that much of a threat to the capital ships in a task force in any case. The destroyers can cover the flanks quite well, and are there to take one for the team.

Answer 5

I am an enlisted veteran of the Navy (surface), and I have a basic knowledge of ASW (anti-submarine warfare) and sonar.

To the best of my knowledge, such technology does not exist; however, if it did, it would only be able to be quiet enough to be undetectable to "passive" sonar. Adapting to the situation, the Navy would use its "active" sonar systems to locate the torpedoes as well as their source.

The superior technology and stealth of US submarines (which are always in the vicinity of a large US naval force) and the unparalleled ASW of the Navy would locate and identify (by propeller signature) a Chinese submarine prior to any torpedo launch. Therefore, if this attack were to occur, it would not happen without immediate reprisal and the aggressor (China) would be immediately known.

Answer 6

A naval force would include several vessels and aircraft whose main function is to locate and destroy enemy submarines. They are VERY good at doing this. Also our own nuke submarine force spends a lot of its time tracking enemy subs. Your sub that wanted to fire the stealth torpedo, and any other subs as well, would first have to get within range to launch, and even if they got very, very lucky and managed to do so they'd soon be nothing more than a large mass of shattered, radioactive metal plunging to the bottom. To make your story work, coming up with a totally undetectable submarine would be a more realistic scenario.

Answer 7

Passive sonar detects the sound things make. This is one of your first indications of a torpedo launch. Active sonar detects things through reflected sonic energy. A stealth torpedo is possible; it would have to run quiet and disperse active sonar pings to be successful. Supercavitating torpedoes like the Shkval are the real world fear right now: Allegedly Iran has a few as well.
http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

Answer 8

Not with current technology Torpedo's are extremely noisy when they approach their targets at high speed do to the pressure caused by moving the water out of the way. if the torpedo is going to be silent it would need to come in at a slow speed. and either way once the task force was under attack the destroyers and other ASW assets would go to active sonar systems which would be able to detect the objects in the water much easier.

Answer 9

okay sonar doesn't actually detect the sound of an object. sonar works by sending sound waves out. When these sound waves hit some object, it will bounce back towards the receiver, indicating that there is something, as in your case, in the water. now the torpedoes could have sort of material that instead of reflecting the sound waves, would absorb them. Also they could be shaped in a way to deflect the ways away from the source. That is how a stealth bomber works, and is able to be nearly invisible to radar, so there is no good reason why it "theoretically" couldn't be possible.

Answer 10

As I understand Sonar Technology, it would not be possible, as the rapid movement of the torpedo through the water is what would alert the sonar. However, that is the beauty of fiction, it doesn't matter if it is possible right now. When Jules Verne wrote about Space Flight, it wasn't possible.

Answer 11

It's your book--your world. Anything is possible! Do you know how many sub movies I've watched with our son and he cracks up at the things Hollywoood comes up with? So, unless you've got a sonar or torpedo expert reading your book, shouldn't be a problem!

Good luck!!