See if you still think the war in Iraq is illegal after reading this.?

Question

Regardless of your political views, this certainly gives us all food for thought.
Sen. Glenn was so quick on his feet.

When you speak from the heart and with passion, you never know what comes out.
SENATOR JOHN GLENN SAID:

Things that make you think a little.......

1. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq
during the month of January.....

In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.

That's just one American City ,about as deadly as
the entire war torn country of Iraq .

2. When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war,state the following;

FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.

From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman...finished that war and started one in Korea , North Korea never attacked us.

From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy....started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson...turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,
an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us.

He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.

Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

3. In the two years since terrorists attacked us
President Bush has liberated two countries,

Crushed the Taliban,

Crippled al-Qaida,

Put nuclear inspectors in Libya , Iran and North Korea , without firing a shot, and
captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking,

but...It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch
Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less
time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy
the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the Police
after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick, killing a woman.

Wait, there's more......................

Some people still don't understand why military personnel do what they
do for a living. This exchange between Senators John Glenn and Senator
Howard Metzenbaum is worth reading. Not only is it a pretty impressive,
impromptu speech, but it's also a good example of one man's explanation
of why men and women in the armed services do what they do for a living.

This is a typical, though sad, example of what some who have never served think of our military.

JOHN GLENN ON THE SENATE FLOOR Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004

Senator Howard Metzenbaum to Senator Glenn: "How can you run for Senate
when you've never held a real job?"

Senator Glenn: "I served 23 years in the United States Marine Corps. I served through two wars.
I flew 149 missions. My plane was hit by antiaircraft fire on 12 different occasions. I was in
the space program.

It wasn't my checkbook, Howard; it was my life on the
line. It was not a nine-to-five job, where I took time off to take the
daily cash receipts to the bank. I ask you to go with me .. as I
went the other day... to a veteran's hospital and look those men -
with their mangled bodies - in the eye, and tell THEM they didn't hold a
job! You go with me to the Space Program at NASA and go, as I have
gone, to the widows and orphans of Ed White, Gus Grissom and Roger
Chaffee... and you look those kids in the eye and tell them that their Dads
didn't hold a job.



You go with me on Memorial Day and you stand in
Arlington National Cemetery , where I have more friends buried than I'd
like to remember, and you watch those waving flags.
You stand there, and you think about this nation, and
you tell ME that those people didn't have a job? I'll tell you, Howard
Metzenbaum; you should be on your knees every day of your life
thanking God that there were some men - SOME MEN - who held REAL jobs. And
they required a dedication to a purpose - and a love of country and a
dedication to duty that was more important than life itself. And
their self-sacrifice is what made this country possible.>>

I HAVE held a job, Howard! What about you?"

For those who don't remember - During W.W.II, Howard
Metzenbaum was an attorney representing the Communist Party in the USA

If you can read this, thank a teacher....

If you are reading it in English, thank a Veteran.

dze. Iraq attacked Kuwait, an alllie, and started teh Gulf War. It ended in cease fire, there were resolutions put in place that Iraq must follow or the war would continue. Iraq broke those resolutions by kicking out UN inspectors and firing on our planes patroling the no fly zone. We had every right to go back in to Iraq and finish what was started in the first Gulf War.

Answer 1

germany declared war on the US.
we went to korea as part of a UN force.
vietnam officially started in 1959. now i will concede truman gave monetary help to the french. we were in vietnam because of the boogey man of the time. had we listened to the advice we gave the french,we would have avoided vietnam.
bosnia was a UN/NATO operation
no member state has any authority to enforce a UN reolution,without UN approval. hate the truth all you want,it reinforces my statement about teaching history.
they need to teach history in school.

Answer 2

To the stated question: Like every other conflict since WWII, this is NOT a legal war. There has been no declaration of war. You can call them police actions, "peacekeeping" missions, treaty obligations, or a number of other names. (BTW, Germany did declare war on us three days after Pearl Harbor and that's generally deemed sufficient cause to formally declare war back)

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

The costs of these actions in human terms has been very low in combat terms, I agree. However, in monetary terms and in international respect, as well as our long term interests I fear it has been very high.

Yes, most definitely, being in the military is a job. It is one that should be very respected, especially when it's all volunteer. Defense of self and the rightful defense of others is a very moral and necessary calling if a civilization is to survive.

Whether it's in the number of deaths, lengths of time or any other count, numbers alone do not make a thing right or wrong. Afghanistan can be arguably justified as the ties between Al Qaida and what passed for a government there were pretty strong. The conflict in Iraq though, has no more moral standing than any of the other conflicts you listed.

The Taliban has not been crushed. They are strongly resurgent and it's only getting worse. Qadaffi in Libya is probably regretting his surrender in the nuclear arena, given that Iran and North Korea are successfully thumbing their noses at the rest of the world - kicking inspectors out, not in. Hussein was one of the more brutal dictators in the world, but not the worst of his ilk and one we supported when it suited our policy just as we supported the mujahdeen, many of which became the core of the Taliban and Al Qaida, when they were fighting the Soviets.

BTW - I learned to read before starting school and my father enlisted on Dec 8, 1941 and I am proud of him for it.

Answer 3

Murders in Detroit do not make a war any more or less legal.
In truth, Germany did attack a U.S. ship before our entry into that conflict. Neither Korea or Viet Nam were declared wars, and the rightness or wrongness of them does not make a war in Iraq legal. The actions of past presidents are not excuses for the actions of the current president.
The job that the military does is not an excuse either. It is not in any way, disrespectful of the military to oppose a particular war. Those that use this kind of logic are purposely avoiding the real debate. It is not just the conservatives that do this. many liberals will ponit out that the United States put both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein into power. The U.S. funded and supplied chemical weapons to Iraq as well and Osama Bin Laden went to Afghanistan at the behest of the U.S. government. These are all true facts, but they do not argue against war any more than the other views argue for it.
Don't be misled by statistics and patriotic babble.
The truth is that we are living in the 21st century and still fighting wars. War is nasty, bloody, deadly. It is not a pretty, honorable thing.
It is wrong and no amount of history will make it right.

Answer 4

Technically, the War is legal. The Administration crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's on this one, both domestically and with the UN. Neither Congress nor the UN had any idea that the Beloved Leader would make it a PERMANENT War, but they did sign off on it. But, I agree with Porselvis on this one. We should stop recognizing war as a legal activity and start prosecuting Acts of War as common crimes. When you get down to it, there's no bigger crime than the slaughter of tens of thousands and the destruction of that much property. Forget Special Tribunals for terrorists and aggressors should be treated like Ted Bundy and made the one exception to a ban on the Death Penalty.

Answer 5

Wow. There were SO many misstatements and logic jumps there, I hardly know where to begin. In fact it would take me all afternoon to reply.

First, what was the point of the conversation between Metzenbaum and Glenn? NO ONE here is doubting that what our soldiers do is important, nor that they aren't a great fighting force and essential to the security of our country. But that has nothing to do with the POLITICAL choices made by an inept administration.

Second: Re: all the wars.
WWII: Germany declared war on the U.S., not the other way around. We declared war on the country that attacked us: Japan.
There was absolute justification for the war, and not a mere "threat" of armed combat, but actual dictators marching over the world trying to create a new world order. We did not have any "preemptive strikes" or the Bush Doctrine. Casualties were extremely high because of the nature of the combat.

The Korean war was not a U.S. operation, but AUTHORIZED BYT HE U.N.! (with China abstaining). Response once again to an ACTUAL invasion.
Likewise, our involvement in Korea and Vietnam was in reasponse to treaties we had signed and agreements we had made with Southeast Asian countries to prevent the spread of communism (violently, nonetheless)
Once again -- high casualties because of the nature of the war. And no one's saying that Vietnam and the escallation announced by Nixon was a good idea.

Clinton's involvement in Bosnia was as part of a multinational force (although the French and the Russians were skeptical because of cultural ties) to resore piece and end ethnic clensing. There was no "war," we were not deposing any govenment except for the war criminals who were doing ethnic clensing on a statewide level. And the purpose of our deployment was to render aid and stop genocide. There was never any idea that we'd run the country, nor was there any deployment to even close of a degree as there is in Iraq.

Iraq was started on false pretenses. Bush intentionally attempted to tie terrorism to Iraq when there was no definitive evidence of such. Bush accused Saddam of having WMD and being an imminent threat to the U.S. -- not even close. The only WMD was the stuff WE GAVE HIM to fight the Iran/Iraq war.
And yes, Saddam did unleash weapons against the Kurds, but not 300,000 (can't count the Iran/Iraq war casualties, which we wanted Saddam to win.) And Saddam was not engaging in any widespread genocide at the time of our invasion. (And had that been the REASON given for invasion we could have evaluated it; not the kneejerk claims of fear and threats that GWB used).

We have NOT "crushed" the Taliban -- everything except for the capital city of Afghanistan is pretty much unsecure -- and the Taliban's allies are regrouping.

We've done almost nothing re: al Qaeda--why? Because there hasnt really been any al Qaeda involvement in Iraq.

North Korea nuclear inspectors? What? North Korea just test fired a nuclear weapon! We've done NOTHING to stop that truly rogue nation from developing weapons.
Libya has become a more open state voluntarily, sick of years and years of sanctions from the West.
Iran? Nuclear inspectors in Iran? When? Who!?

Accepting as true that someone could have gotten Osama during Clinton's presidency, that means that Clinton screwed up, too, not that Bush is a great leader or that the Iraq war is justified.

Get your facts straight -- there's plenty of good rhetoric out there--why not use it?

Answer 6

Not really seeing what your point is supposed to be. This mostly just sounds like a really long rant.

I live up the street within spitting distance (almost literally) from Arlington Cemetery and the Pentagon, so I had a front row seat for the 9/11 damage and the rebuilding afterwards. I don't recall any of powers-that-be from either side of the political fence showing up to help clean up, although a couple of them did put in an appearance for random photo-ops.

I ride in Rolling Thunder every Memorial Day with a group of vets from 3 wars. My grandfather was a WWII fighter pilot. I was raised knowing the difference between patriotism and fanaticism.

It's really cute that you have a history jones and that random political commentary seems to be your hobby, but Y!A isn't really the correct forum for this sort of thing (trolling). I suggest that you start a blog.

Answer 7

This is in regards to your bit about detroit being safer. The killings you are reading our are casualties, the Iraqi's are loosing as many as 50-150 people a day, many more are made refugees and are leaving the country. This is a country with only 30 million people as to the United States 300 million.

Answer 8

I honestly don't believe "legality" has any reference to our situation here in Iraq. Irregardless of the facts, which by the way are usually overlooked and I am personally glad to see you took the time to state these here, what we plan to achieve in Iraq is to allow these poor deprived souls to have a chance to flourish and become a great democratic nation and ally for peace in the world. It has come as a great cost, but if you read blogs like www.michellemalkin.com who has posted a soldier's reason for being in Iraq, then you may have a better understanding.

Answer 9

1. you have to compare populations. If 40 people out of 5 million or killed and compared to 40 people out of 15 million are killed it doesn't work. Also, one month isn't a good sample. There might have only been 2 murders in Detroit the month before, but still 39 in Iraq.

2. The biggest difference would be support from within and UN support. Most of those examples had support from the people or international support for the action. Iraq really has neither.

3. You are supporting that image that Bush is a war monger who only gets things done through death and destruction, not diplomacy and internation relations.

And after all that you gave no evidence to support your claim in the question?

Answer 10

Thank you for the wonderful question. I never thought the war in Iraq was illegal. The points you bring out are in the annual Book of Facts, some are called Almanacs. A number of publishers offer them every year. You are correct...compare the death facts in the U.S. and you might wonder if there's a war going on here. Also, watch Cops or Court TV, and those crazy chase videos. It's a dangerous place everywhere if you think about only the crime and bad things happening...OH, yes, that's right...that's what the news media is doing in their reporting of the way things are going in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Thank you for taking the time to list all those facts. That data should be sent to every newspaper editor in the U.S.

Answer 11

As true as your facts may be, it is not what those who oppose Bush and the Rep. party want to believe or hear. It is a sign of sad belief that the facts really don't matter. If anyone feels that their party is attacked or threatened, they will defend it regardless. We continue to forget and deny that both parties have made costly decisions concerning our country and military in the past. No one nor no one party is perfect. We should learn from history and make sure not to repeat that which was bad. Good job on your findings.