J.W's - If the Holy Spirit is merely an impersonal, "active force" as the Watchtower teach...?

Question

How come Ephesians 4:30 warns against grieving Him ? How can an impersonal, "active force" experience an emotion such as grief ? A direct answer to this specific scripture would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for all answers.

trk -
you made no attempt to address Ephesians 4:30.
in regard to terms such as "filling", "anonting", etc. with the Holy Spirit, how does the use of these terms render the person of the Holy Spirit invalid ? The apostle Paul spoke of being poured out as a drink offering (2 Timothy 4:6), does the use of this expression make Paul any less a person ? It's called metaphor.

greg airious -
neither did you make any real attempt to address the scripture in question. you merely dismissed it beacuse it does not fit your WT theology. is that an honest approach to the scripture ?

Time and again -
John was the same one who recorded the words of Thomas, a monotheistic Jew to Jesus - "My Lord and my God". (Lit. "The Lord of me and the God of me"). How many gods did this monotheist have ?
Please note - "Thomas said to him (that is, Jesus)...".

TeeM -
Your argument concerning the Bible is weak. Where does it say that the Bible can experience emotion ? Regarding the "finger" of God - this is, quite obviously (?) metaphorical. How else is it to be taken ? The use of metaphorical terms in regard to the Spirit does not render Him any less a person. See above comments regarding Paul's use of metaphor in respect of himself.

TeeM -
You refer to the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts, What about Acts 13:2 where it says in your NWT that the Holy Spirit requested Barnabas and Saul to be set apart for the work to which He had called them ? The term "Holy Spirit of God" is not used there, and also He asks for them to be set apart "to Me". Do they sound like the words of an impersonal, "active force"?

TeeM -
If the Holy Spirit is not an individual as you claim, why was the command given to baptize disciples in His name(onomah - authority / character) along with the Father and the Son, two other persons ?

Mark 3:29 - How can an impersonal, "active force" be blasphemed ? Please bear in mind the warning that comes with this scripture...

Regarding the addressing the Holy Spirit as "which" rather than "whom", etc -
"If JW's wish to justify their use of the pronoun which with reference to the Holy Spirit on the ground of the fact that pneuma is a neuter noun in Greek, we would remind them that the NWT at other times uses a masculine or feminine pronoun to refer to a neuter noun. For example, in Matthew 14:11 we read, "And his head was brought on a platter and given to the maiden (korasion), and she brought it to her mother." The Greek verb translated "she brought" is eenegken, a third person singular form. This form may be translated either as "he brought", "she brought", or "it brought". The implied subject of the verb is korasion, a neuter noun, meaning little girl or maiden. If a neuter noun always called for a neuter pronoun, the translation should have read, "it brought it to her mother." here, however, the translators correctly interpreted the neuter noun as standing for a person, and hence rendered the clause...

(cont.)..."and she brought it to her mother." We can only conclude, therefore, that when the New World translators refer to the Holy Spirit as it or which, their choice of pronouns is not based upon grammatical grounds but upon their own preconceived conception of the impersonality of the Holy Spirit." - A.A. Hoekema, "The Four Major Cults".

Achtung -
Your argument that people are not filled with other people is incorrect.
What about the Gaderenes demoniac ?
Also - how can you say that Christians don't preach ? Are you omniscient ? I have witnessed of the true gospel of salvation through faith in Christ many times. You have not, because you preach a false gospel of salvation by works, the heretical WT teaching that man can recieve eternal life through obedience to God's commandments during the 1000 years. Salvation by works - totally contrary to the Bible.

Answer 1

Quoting Scripture to J.W.'s doesn't always work. They use a different "Bible" than we do. It's called the "New World Translation." I managed to get a copy (You can only get one from a J.W.). For example: John 1:1b, in their book says, "..and the word was a god." Can you imagine John writing that?

Answer 2

A comparison of Bible text that refer to the holy spirit shows that it is spoken of as "filling' people; they can be "baptized" with it; and they can be "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt 3:11, Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropiate if the holy spirit were a person.

Jesus also referred to the holy spirit as a "helper", and he said that this helper would "teach", "bear witness", "speak" and "hear". (John 14:16 & 17, 26; John 15:26; John 16:13) It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something to be personified. For example, wisdom is said to have "children" (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5: 14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit "spoke", other passages make clear that this was done through angels and humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; Acts 28:25;
Matt. 10: 19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11). At 1 John 5:6-8 not only the spirit but also "the water and the blood" are said to "bear witness". So, none of the expressions found in these tests in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.

The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is the active force of God. It is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will. (Ps 104:30; 2 Pet 1:21; Acts 4:31)

Also consider: The Bible tells us God's name Jehovah, his son Jesus, but no name for the Holy Spirit. Ps 83:18; John 17:3
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw "Jesus standing at God's right hand." But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. (see also Rev. 7:10; Rev 22:1, 3)

Answer 3

Acts 5:3 But Peter said: “An•a•ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit..." 9 So Peter said to her: “Why was it agreed upon between YOU [two] to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah?

The context of these verses show that the holy spirit is the spirit of Jehovah (Lord).

Because the spirit of God, comes from God it is holy.

The bible contains may examples of "things" having "human" traits.

The bible is said to be alive. Heb ch. 4
The bible is said to give comfort. Rom ch. 15
We call the bible Holy because it comes from Jehovah.

But the bible is not "God" nor is it an individual.

Jesus expelled demons by the finger (spirit) of God.

A finger is part of a person but not "the person".

Holy spirit is part of God, but is not "God"

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Since Jehovah is a Spirit, everything he accomplishes is by means of holy spirit.

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(NASB)
Eph 4:30Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even the context this verse shows that it the holy spirit OF God.

Of God denotes ownership, not individuality.

The context of this verse shows that the holy spirit seals a christian. Like a wax stamp in Jesus' day.

The word "whom" in the NASB bible is incorrect because the pronoun with the word "spirit" in greek is in the neuter form, not a personal form.

The word "whom" should be correctly translated into English as "which" the neuter from.

To translate "which" into "whom" is based not an accruacy and truth, but is based on theology and bias. It is adding words into the bible that are not there.

===edit====

Please answer why Paul at Eph. 4:30 calls the holy spirit "IT"? and not he?

In proper English & Greek you can call a boat a "she" but you CAN NOT call a person a "it"

"Bob, it was a great person." is wrong in both English and Greek. (Go ask your English teacher what is proper English)

It is not JW's saying the holy spirit is not a 'person' it is Paul who is said it.

Jesus gave strong evidence that he is the Messiah, It was the Jews who rejected that evidence.

You are right when you said God doesn't have a finger and that it is an illustration. But what was Jesus illustrating? That a ‘person’ is a finger? or God’s active force is acting as his agent to accomplish God’s will?

In English the phrase “in the name of” does not mean the individual has a name, it means the authority of something. Stop in the name of the law, does not mean the law is a person.

Since God’s spirit acts in us, we have to accept the authority of the spirit.

Acts 13:2,

If Jehovah can make a donkey speak, why are we surprise to hear the holy spirit speak? Wait that was an angel speaking thru the donkey, Just as Jehovah is speaking thru the holy spirit.

Answer 4

The Holy Spirit is like an appendage; the bible actually calls it "God's finger". A thumb hit by a hammer certainly feels "grieved" (see Scriptures below).

The fact is that the Scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, but an impersonal thing or quality. Here are two obvious lines of reasoning...

1. People are NOT filled with other people; they are filled with impersonal QUALITIES:
(Luke 1:41) Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit
(Luke 2:40) filled with wisdom
(Luke 4:28) became filled with anger
(Luke 5:26) they became filled with fear
(Luke 6:11) they became filled with madness
(Acts 3:10) they became filled with astonishment
(Acts 5:17) Sadducees, rose and became filled with jealousy
(Acts 19:29) the city became filled with confusion

2. Logical connections
Here the impersonal thing Holy Spirit is connected with the impersonal thing "power":
(Acts 10:38) God anointed him with holy spirit and power

Here the impersonal thing Holy Spirit is connected with the impersonal thing "joy":
(Acts 13:52) the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit

The Scriptures apply anthroporphic qualities to many impersonal things. Trinitarians are required to believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, but literally *ALL* of their so-called "proofs" that the Holy Spirit is a person fail in the light of the entire bible. Here are lines of reasoning that expose the unscripturality of the arguments which pretend that the Holy Spirit is a person.


Comparing these two Scriptures (which describe the identical event) helps explain that the Holy Spirit can be thought of as "God's finger".
(Luke 11:20) If it is by means of God's finger I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU. . .
(Matthew 12:28) If it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the kingdom of God has really overtaken YOU.

Can a person's finger be "hurt" (or "grieved")? Obviously.
(Isaiah 63:10) They themselves rebelled and made his holy spirit [or "God's finger"] feel hurt
(Ephesians 4:30) Also, do not be grieving God's holy spirit [or "God's finger"]


The Scriptures often personify impersonal things or qualities:
(Luke 7:35) wisdom is proved righteous by all its children
(Romans 5:14) death ruled as king
(Romans 5:21) sin ruled as king

Referring to the "mind" or governing principles of an inanimate thing does not make it a person; neither does referring to a thing's "heart" or core make it a person:
(Matthew 12:40) the heart of the earth
(Exodus 15:8) the heart of the sea
(2 Samuel 18:14) the heart of the big tree
(Deuteronomy 4:11, footnote) the heart of the heavens

The Scriptures clarify that actual PERSONS spoke ON BEHALF OF the Holy Spirit:
(Acts 4:25) holy spirit said by the mouth of our forefather David...
(Acts 28:25) The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet
(Matthew 10:20) it is the spirit of your Father that speaks by you

Other nonpersons 'testify' or 'bear witness':
(1 John 5:7,8) there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood

Arguments pretending that a person can "fill" another person are based on pagan witchcraft and Babylonish mysticism. The Scriptures consistently show that only nonpersonal qualities can "fill" a person. Jehovah's Witnesses are unlikely to trade their Scriptural true worship for witchcraft and Trinitarian false worship; apostasy such as trinitarianism was foretold in the bible.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3) We request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason... the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed

(2 Peter 2:1) there will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects


Finally, if trinitarians are true Christians, why do they ignore Christ's command that each Christian must preach?

(2 Timothy 4:3-5) For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

(Matthew 28:19,20) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded

Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/article_07.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/article_08.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/
http://watchtower.org/e/20020515/
http://watchtower.org/e/20050422/article_02.htm

Answer 5

To grieve God's holy spirit means to deny that the spirit or power is from God himself. The religious leaders in Jesus' time attributed the miracles he performed to Satan and the demons. Therefore they grieved Jehovah's spirit, since it was the force behind his Son's miraculous powers. It was certainly not from his enemy, the Devil.
The Bible's use of "holy spirit" indicates that it is a controlled force that Jehovah God uses to accomplish a variety of his purposes. To a certain extent, it can be likened to electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations.
God's spirit can also supply "power beyond what is normal" to those who serve him. (2 Corinthians 4:7) This enables them to endure trials of faith or to do things they could not otherwise do.
The Bible says that when Jesus was baptized, holy spirit came down upon him appearing like a dove, not like a human form. (Mark 1:10) This active force of God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and raise the dead. As Luke 5:17 says: And it came to pass on one of those days, that he was teaching; and there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, who were come out of every village of Galilee and Judaea and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was with him to heal."
God's spirit also empowered the disciples of Jesus to do miraculous things. Acts 2:1-4 relates that the disciples were assembled together at Pentecost when "suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, . . . and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance."
So the holy spirit gave Jesus and other servants of God the power to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
Many people were "filled with holy spirit" They were not filled with a person.
In the Scriptures it is not unusual for something to be personified. Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as reigning (Romans 5:14, 21) At Genesis 4:7 The New English Bible (NE) says: "Sin is a demon crouching at the door," personifying sin as a wicked spirit crouching at Cain's door. But, of course, sin is not a spirit person; nor does personifying the holy spirit make it a spirit person.
neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: "The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381"—some three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost.

No, the holy spirit is not a person and it is not part of a Trinity. The holy spirit is God's active force that he uses to accomplish his will. It is not equal to God but is always at his disposition and subordinate to him.



"On the whole, the New Testament, like the Old, speaks of the spirit as a divine energy or power." —A Catholic Dictionary

Answer 6

There is a religious teaching today that we will be
resurrected to live as perfect humans. It comes from Jesus letting himself be touched after His resurrection and saying He was flesh and blood.
So that has caused the Society that heads the Witnesses
to disregard the main body of spiritul teachings.
I have only recently learned myself that we are not
supposed to just die, and let our spirit return to Heaven.
But translate like Enoch, Elijiah, and Christ, and transform
our physical body, taking it with us. It has something to do
with NOT feeding the "evil", recycling force in Creation.

Answer 7

Or, how could Annanias and Sapphira have been killed for holding back their offering - and St. Peter then proclaim: "You have lied to the Spirit - you have lied not to men, but to God!" ??

Answer 8

How can we grieve God’s holy spirit, since it is not a person?

It was the apostle Paul who wrote: “Do not be grieving God’s holy spirit.” (Ephesians 4:30) Some take these words to be an indication that the holy spirit is a person.

Paul was not referring to God’s holy spirit as a person.

God’s holy spirit is his invisible active force. (Genesis 1:2) Jesus was to baptize “with holy spirit,” just as John was baptizing with water. (Luke 3:16) At Pentecost 33 C.E., some 120 disciples were “filled with holy spirit”—obviously not with a person. (Acts 1:5, 8; 2:4, 33) Such anointed ones received a heavenly hope, and God’s spirit led them in a life of faithfulness. (Romans 8:14-17; 2 Corinthians 1:22) The spirit produced godly fruitage and helped them to avoid the sinful “works of the flesh” that could result in divine disapproval.—Galatians 5:19-25.

We would grieve the holy spirit if we were to ignore Scriptural counsel penned under the guidance of holy spirit, we could develop traits that could result in willful sin against the spirit, the loss of Jehovah’s favor, and eventual destruction. (Matthew 12:31, 32) We might not yet be sinning gravely, but we could be starting off on the wrong road, one that could eventually take us in a direction contrary to the leading of the spirit. Under such circumstances, we would be grieving the holy spirit.

How, then, can we avoid grieving God’s spirit? We certainly have to control our thoughts and actions. In his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4, the apostle Paul spoke about avoiding tendencies toward dishonest statements, sustained wrathfulness, laziness, and unsuitable speech. If we have put on “the new personality” and yet allow ourselves to drift back toward such things, what would we be doing? We would be going against the spirit-inspired counsel of God’s Word, the Bible. By doing this, we would be grieving the holy spirit.

In Ephesians chapter 5, we read Paul’s counsel about avoiding prurient interest in fornication. The apostle also urges fellow believers to avoid shameful conduct and obscene jesting. If we do not want to grieve God’s holy spirit, we ought to bear this in mind when choosing entertainment. Why would we show interest in such things by talking about them, reading about them, and viewing their portrayal on television or elsewhere?

Of course, we could grieve the spirit in other ways. Jehovah’s spirit promotes unity in the congregation, but suppose we were to spread harmful gossip or encourage cliques in the congregation. Would we not be working against the spirit’s leadings toward unity? In a general way, we would be grieving the holy spirit, like those who caused divisions in the congregation in Corinth. (1 Corinthians 1:10; 3:1-4, 16, 17) We would also be grieving the spirit if we deliberately undermined respect for spirit-appointed men in the congregation.—Acts 20:28; Jude 8.

(You asked for JW's to respond. I believe you have received lots of comments that have come from others)

Now that you have responded to many of these replies, it is quite apparant that you were not sincerely seeking an answer as your originial tone seemed to sound. You say that some of us did not address the Scripture. You could not have read these replies and also say that. Every one of us addressed the Scripture.

Had any of us known you were only asking for the purpose of criticising and berating, you certainly would not have heard from a single JW. We are happy to engage in conversation with anyone seeking Bible truth and we respect the fact that not everyone will agree with what we say. That is fine. But we have no need a of debate with a person who seeks an argument and not Bible answers.