Who agrees that the Arab world will only ever advance when it separates Islam (Religion) from state?

Question

I believe (I'm Jordanian) that the Arab world can only ever become civilized and advanced like or nearly like the west if, and only if, Religion is separated from state. That's how the west advanced. True, religion must not be abandoned, but still, it shouldn't rule. Even if Islamic law says it should, Muslims must learn that until religion becomes a separate, non-ruling institute, there can be no advancement. There can be no technological, philosophical, political, economical, intellectual or scientific development until this happens, because Islam as the state law oppresses all these fields in one way or another.

I'm not discussing facts about Islam here, so please don't answer to that unasked question. I'm talking about religion and state.

I agree with first answer about education. But you see the problem is that in the Arab world, and in Jordan for example, there is a high influence on scientific education... What's the problem? The Prob. is that for example a lesson about water for 3rd grade science begins with " And We have created all things living..." If you don't know what that is- it's a verse from the Qu'ran... Do you get my point?

Even if religion was separated, I doubt that it would cause a problem of lack of faith. Because Arabs, whether Muslim or Christian (and yes there are Christian Arabs- in fact Lebanon is Christian, and I'm Catholic BTW) love their faith. Arabs love religion as part of their lives. Therefore, they would uphold it as much as possible when religion is abolished as the state law. That would solve the prob. Advancement can occur while people remain religious if they wish, without having their faith affect their development as a society towards what is universally accepted.

Ya Salti inta, when will you leanr ti7tarem ghairak? la2ino my opinion ghair 3anak bitfa3fet? Hath huweh il bi3almak ya il islam? Il i7teram? Kaif bidak yana nitawar when we have ashkal mithlak.

Sorry guys the last comment was for a fellow (retard) Jordanain. It's in Arabic Chat Slang....Its a mixture of English and numbers.. Long story. Any way back to the issue.

Answer 1

Excellent question and well argued. Jesus encouraged seperation of church and state- "give to Caesars what is Caesars and give to God what is Gods"..."my kingdom is not of this world" and all his teaching on the kingdom of heaven.

Part of the argument Muslims give for theocracy is that they claim Islam encompasses all of life (unlike Christianity which has seperated church and state). Religion however only encompasses the lives of those who follow it.
The state shouldn't advocate any one belief- whether its religion, secular humanism or whatever.
Religion and morality can't be legislated although they should be respected.
God is in control of the world whether it has theocracy or whatever- he still raises up and humbles throughout history.

Answer 2

Religion can be quite subjective. Any religion has its share of conservatives, moderates and liberals - so which one forms the government. For this reason, religion cannot effectively be employed by the state.

Having said that, I'll point out that there are no absolutes for the structure of a state. what may be perfect for the west may fail in Arab countries. The best state structure would be determined by cultural, regional, religious and many other considerations.

China is a communist state, but seems to be doing well right now

Answer 3

As a Christian from the west, I think there is some truth to what you say, but you should take these steps carefully. The west has advanced materially, but is spiritually impoverished. There is almost no religion in Europe, which leaves people cold and comfortless. In the spiritual vacuum that remained after the enlightenment, monstrous philosophies such as communism and eugenics arose, making the 20th century the bloodiest ever. The Arab and Jewish countries in the Middle East, for all everyone complains about them, have never descended to quite that level of brutality.

Even in the United States, where secularism did not cause religion to disappear, it has come with some nasty side effects. Competing forms of Christianity that follow a consumer model have spawned some monstrous forms of that religion, such as the 'prosperity gospel' (a belief that God is like a divine stock broker waiting to hand out riches), and militant nationalist Christianity (which makes a kind of an idolatry with flags in the sanctuary and worship of the country itself.)

Western spirituality is very sickly. I have a Jordanian Christian friend who is Catholic, and from what she tells me, her religion is healthier in your country than it is here!

I think the Arab world should study the west's efforts to secularize, by all means, and learn something from it. But don't rush to duplicate it just yet - some things have worked out well, but not all things.

Answer 4

Comment to applelove Allah never guaranteed superiority to muslims for all time till judgment day , no there are rules in this world , like that the one who work hard become better and win , in islam we say he you should get " al- asbab" mean that you should get the means of success , then go and ask God for blessing and support . and there are examples for that ; in the first war of islam , muslims were 300 with only a couple of horses , and their enemies were 1000 with about 200 horse (as I remember) but muslims did everything they can to win , they won an overwhelming victory , in the next war , they also were less , and they almost won , but some of the muslims (the archers) didn’t listen to the prophet's orders , so they lost , and that was a big lesson , even if muhammed himself is with them and they didn’t do their job well , they cant win , the 3rd battle was between the and a coalition of all other tribes , plus the Jewish tribe who were supposed to cover them but they betrayed and turned over them , muslims did all they can do , so God helped them by sending a super storm that make the attackers run , so the lesson is : to win you have to take the means of winning . once someone was coming to the mosque and let his camel out without tiding it , and when prophet muhammed asked him ,he replied that he counted on God's protection , the prophet replied to him " tide it , then count on God's protection " got the meaning ? so muslims were superior for hundreds of years , then they got worse and worse , now they are corrupt and not enough civilized , so what would you expect for a result : in the bottom of course .. America did everything right , and got the luck of having someone like George Washington to be their first president , he could be a corrupt dictator , and if that happened, America wont be better than Mexico or Brazil till now , so America got the luck , and all means of winning so why not to win . bottom line : any nation get it's chance , and even america if it let it's greatness go , like wasting time fighting islamic country and terrorists here and there , it will collapse like all great nations before , and by the way i dont hope so

Answer 5

nothing could be closer to the truth.
Look at what's happening in Iraq some one is forcing democracy down their throat and it's resulting in complete failure. One can not begin to introduce modern statesmanship in a world where some leaders still claim that they are under the protection of God. That's exactly where we went wrong. It wans't until the French revolution that we came to this conclusion. If one takes into account that Islam evolution is a few centuries behind it will take a couple more years before they reach this point. Patience is all that can be done

Answer 6

There are a number of reasons for lack of growth in the Middle-East, but religion doesn't make my top 5.

1. The private sector in the Middle East has not been dynamic enough to integrate with the global economy.

2. The region relies heavily on fixed exchange rates which makes exports uncompetitive and unattractive.

3. Huge military budgets take GDP away from much-needed infrastructure improvements.

4. Unattractive political climate.

5. For the oil-producing countries, adjustment of their economies away from oil has been slow or non-existent.

Global integration tied with a stable and supportive government will grow any economy.

Answer 7

I agree. However it needs to be a separation in the minds of the people. The US has separation enshrined in its constitution yet the country is over run by religious zealots. Conversely no such legal position exists in the UK and indeed the Queen is also the head of the Church, yet the UK is a far more secular country.

In reality the solution to the problem lies in education. There is a direct and inverse correlation between ones education in the sciences and their religious belief. Middle eastern countries are notoriously poor, at least at the main population level, and this fits the education/religion model just mentioned.

Only improved education will bring these people out of the middle ages. The same can be said for the US, surprisingly enough.

Religion is highly resistant to change. Even the Vatican is way behind the current state of science. That is the most difficult barrier to overcome. The bible and the Koran both make certain things an act of heresy that would normally advance a civilisation. In strongly Islamic countries you can be executed for this!

You can't change a country over night. People believe what they want to believe. It takes many generations. That is why I say 'improved' education. If you improve education, people will start to figure things out for themselves regardless of what Islamic slant is put on it.

Answer 8

"like or nearly like the West" ?... lol... civilized?... I guess it all depends on your concept of civilization. If global domination at the cost of an entire populus is your cup of tea, then yes, by all means, strive to be "like the West."

Yes, there are errors and weaknesses in every culture's belief systems and religions, but how interesting it is that you do not mention that the only reason mathematics and science ARE as advanced as they are is because of the advances made by early Muslim scolars.

The most ecumenical philosophy - sufism - also originated in Islam.
So RELIGION AND STATE:- Islam is about how to live and is inextricably linked to state through it's law. Without it's law, it ceases to be Islam and becomes a washed out, "feel good" religion. Without the discipline, there is no Islam. Advancement is not linked to Islam's stiffling of development; it's linked to the people's priorities on an individual level. Look at it this way ; Why is it that in order to "develop" financially, Jews leave their country, South Africans move to Australia, or Australians move to America. There is a little of enough for everyone in the world. The trick is to pick what suits you, and if you can't stand the heat, get out of whatever kitchen you're in..

So yeah - Religion is religion - when it is simply feelgood- like how they remove Christianity from schools so that there is no "contamination of other cultures." What Crock!.. If a country is Christian, it should have it's values imbued in state, and if a country is Muslim, then it's state should reflect the laws of Islam. Simply. As to advancement - may I quote the first words ever spoken to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) - READ.... READ.... READ....

Answer 9

I can understand why you say that, however I would argue that the Arab world can truely succeed if they implement Islam in it's true form.

As it was done in rise of Islam, Muslims at that time were making scientific, technological, philosophical, political, economical, intellectual and medical advances.

How many countries claim to implement Islamic law these days? Look at Pakistan with the man that was on death row? That wasn't really an Islamic ruling?

I would recommend you watch the Interest Free Economy lecture:

http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027

Answer 10

A very interesting and well reasoned question, not like the usual garbage we get on here.

Yes I tend to agree with you. Religion and state should be separate.

This is one of the foundations required before a country can be civilised.
Look at what happened during the dark days of the Bush administration when a bunch of religious crackpots controlled America ( thankfully behind us).

Thank you for being so enlightened, if there are plenty more young people like you then there is indeed hope for the future.