If positive reinforcement training is the most effective on exotic animals, why isn't it used more with dogs?

Question

My brother in law is an exotic animal trainer for show business, and the animals are all trained using just positive reinforcement. The guy who wrote the book says you can't get birds, rats, ostriches, dolphins, killer whales, etc to work for you using force. The animal either won't work or will turn on you.
Marine mammals will drag the trainer underwater if they don't like the training.

So, is the only reason we still use techniques like helicoptering (lifting a dog's front feet off the ground until the dog either passes out or submits), beating (as described by the Koehler method), Alpha rolling, (as performed by the egotistical Cesar Millan,)
on dogs is that dogs will forgive us and still work?

And if a husband hits his wife, and the wife forgives him, does it make it right for the husband to have hit his wife to start with?

Answer 1

I don't know anyone who uses helicoptering, the Koehler method, etc. I don't think you can even compare them to cesar, who works with a lot of red zone dogs many humane societies would put down due to aggression. There is no way many of those dogs who have bitten, shown food aggression would be re homeable. Many rescues put dogs down for food aggression without any work at retraining.

Many people use positive rewards and training with dogs and other pets. Why do you think all the dog show trainers use treats to reward good behavior? Open your eyes.

Your anology of the husband and the wife really has no bearing when it comes to dog training. According to your thought pattern she needs to use positive reinforcement with her abusive husband too?

Answer 2

People use force because it's easier. Simple. It requires a a lot more effort, some knowledge of dog psychology, putting aside your ego and just plain getting to know the dog to use other methods. Also, some breeds have temperaments that just plain wouldn't respond to more humane methods. People bred them that way.

I've had almost exclusively sight hounds, with 2 exceptions, and those methods would never in a million years work on any sighthound. They do respond incredibly well to positive reinforcement, the harsh methods would turn them into totally unreliable dogs, most likely fear biters, then they'd be the kind of dangerous dogs Cesar Millan would need to "save". But his methods are likely easier than doing it the way someone like Suzanne Clothier, German Shepherd breeder and trainer, would.

Answer 3

nicely maximum dogs, like mine are strolling stomachs so i imagine thats the position the idea got here from, in spite of the undeniable fact that you be conscious alot more effective overweight dogs now than you probably did 10 or 20 years in the past. helpful reinforcement works o.k. for some dogs. i extremely imagine "helpful reinforcement" (in a unmarried way or yet another) is right here to stay for a minimum of a lengthy time period so long because it really is in any respect useful. i imagine more effective human beings could be educated themelves in the previous getting a dogs. dogs wouldnt misbehave if the owneres didnt let them. Get what i'm saying? LOL

Answer 4

Hi, I understand that you are looking for some advice or resources to help fully train your dog or fix behavior problems. If a professional dog trainer is not an option at this time, or if you want to trt training your dog on your own (a great way to bond), I'd suggest you https://bitly.im/aL2RS

A friend recommened it to me a few years ago, and I was amazed how quickly it worked, which is why I recommend it to others. The dog training academy also has as an excellent home training course.

Answer 5

Positive reinforcement is used with dogs. It is considered the most current form of training. Do an Internet search of 'clicker training'. Or Pat Miller.

As for your question about the husband and wife- no- it doesn't make it right.

Answer 6

The current trend of "NO CORRECTIONS" is what has many dogs at the pound being put to sleep. I am not sure where the idiotic notion came from, but, it has ruined more dogs then I care to know. You cannot use force on a killer whale or a bird or whatever because it is kind of hard to put a prong collar om them and they are not the right size. A dog however is another story. Contrary to the popular BS belief, dogs are not here to "please us" and a;; they need is more love and all that crap. Dogs are opportunists and they will take advantage of a situation if they can. Look at all the questions here about the dogs that are "ruling" the house because their owners are just "loving them" and loving them some more, ad nausea. All dogs need corrections, all dogs need to be told exactly where they stand. Positive training works for some dogs, BUT NOT ALL. Has anyone here ever experience a dog with severe dominance issues? Does anyone know what a handler civil dog is? Positive reinforcement works in the start of training, with some dogs, but ALL dogs need to go through a proofing and correction phase. Prong collars work on all dogs, chokers are cruel. Nagging under corrections are cruel. Bill Koehler was a legend in his time and some of his ideas are still very good. Dogs are all individuals, what works for one, may not work for another. Corrections are the only way to proof your dog.

Answer 7

Oh for crying out loud. How MANY dogs have YOU trained? How many problem dogs have YOU rehabilitated?

They are PACK animals, NOT birds, rats, or aquatic mammals!

The techniques you decribe are not used much anymore. But, which is worse, one brief harsh technique, or the dog being put down because of the problem?

People like you are the reason for the PP one size fits all techniques that are currently so popular, AND responsible for so many dogs being given up to shelters by their owners.


I totally agree with walkingladys post, Sighthounds do not do well with any kind of harsh techniques and will quickly shut down.

NO technique will work for all dogs and a good trainer will be open to using different methods for different dogs, they are individuals. How stupid to think a group as diverse as dogs, would all be pretty much the same with the same motivations.

Answer 8

Positive reinforcement training is actually the current recommended training method for dogs.

Answer 9

Excellent question! Perhaps it is the way Americans are raised, with the emphasis on greed and everyone for himself. Perhaps it is the feeling that you are "cheating" if the dog enjoys the training experience, too. Perhaps it is our puritanical background, where everything must be a struggle.

Sorry guys, maybe it is this macho influence of having to master our animals. "Yes, we must show the dog who is boss by dominating him physically", is the philosophy of many trainers.
Yet, the original study of domestic dogs showed that using physical force actually lowered the status of the one using the force.

True Alphas can rise above petty infractions and only engage if absolutely necessary. That the dogs pushing other dogs around were actually only alpha wannabees. That the occasion bully might rise to be pack leader, but was quickly deposed.

Nobody likes a bully, apparently.

And that the idea that the so-called Alpha Wolf in a pack rolls the subordinate is wrong. The subordinate will offer that behavior to the higher status dog without the use of physical force.

I guess ultimately, people use force based training because they believe a lot of things that have been proven wrong, but they refuse to educate themselves because they don't want to change.

And still the dogs forgive us. What amazing creatures these dogs are. They get beaten, choked, kicked, jabbed, tsssssted, slammed to the ground, in attempts to stop them from behaving like dogs.

Answer 10

umm because dogs are not exotic pets. while positive reinforcement should be used where helpful. with some dogs it's better to go with their nature and their instincts. come on over and use a clicker with my dog, she will laugh at you and keep on going and just might take the clicker with her. i have a handle on her, she has many admirers for her obedience. and i have never sat down and discussed her feeling with her. just told and showed her how it's going to be. i have never beat my dog and never would reccomend it. and anyone with sense wouldn't do this to anything. she was left with experience gentle leader trainers at a dog show once and guaranteed to be walking on it in 30 mins. well i returned only to have them hand me the gentle leader for free and my dog back on her pinch collar, heeling perfectly while we walked away and the "experienced" trainers shaking their heads. yes it works for most dogs. but there's always the one out there that you must use different methods on or they just don't get it.

and to compare alpha rolling to a man beating his wife, you have more issues than what is described in your question. go back to playing with your bird.


as for the koehler method it's obsolete. no one reccomends it and if you find a trainer that goes by it run away fast. using leaches to empty the bad blood out of a sick human was once thought to be the preferred method of treating an illness. we know better now. it's the same with anything. life is a learning experience, all you can do is your best and find what works for you and do as little harm as possible.