A second question for Atheist?

Question

Earlier I asked if atheist thought the bible contained any practicle wisdom, and most who answered said yes, apart from the religious references, which I can understand; but one answerer said that civilized societies pre-date mono religion and although true, my point of contention is all of those societies and until today seemed to have an innate tendenciy toward war. Even with the Greeks, an attribute of the pederastic relationship was to train the young boy to be a warrior. So even though they were living well for their time, they still weren't satisfied and had an innate propensity to be power hungry, arrogant, ungrateful, insatiable appitites for decadence, etc., .

Which for me demonstrates the need for enlightenment or redemption, meaning that the submission to a higher power is the cure for these uncontrolable desires.

Also, if the early Christians had not been evolving from this type of mentality they may not have resorted to Holy War to make their point. Any thoughts?

Well I can see, this question is TOTALLY misunderstood.

possibly I over illustrated my point, but basically all I'm suggesting is that Yes human beings have innate intelligence and civilized capacity, but the other things I mentioned are also innate and intellect doesn't seem to override them today or in the past.

Answer 1

I see your point about societies both past and present and I think it is a valid one, the evidence in favour seems overwhelming.

Your argument for the need for either enlightenment or redemption from a higher power as a cure also seems valid....I'll submit my thoughts on enlightenment first, then my thoughts on submission to a higher power as a cure later on if that's alright...?

Firstly, I am a Buddhist and have some insight into enlightenment. We see all of the human traits that you mentioned as part of the human condition, each of those negative traits ultimately being to fulfill a desire, want or craving. These cravings are the cause of all human suffering.

(Craving is a Buddhist term meaning a self serving desire....it includes the general term craving but carries further meaning to encompass all negative human desires which are ultimately self serving)

By human suffering, we mean all forms of suffering, mental, physical, emotional and spiritual.

Enlightenment then is the recognition of the causes of suffering and the elimination of it both from our own Life and that of others. Without going into a full explanation of Buddhist Teaching, the ultimate goal is to achieve the elimination of all suffering for all Beings. This process is ongoing and involves taking positive steps to eliminate suffering from our own Life and includes taking positive steps to eliminate it from those in whom we encounter in Life.

The elimination of the causes of suffering is not a cure for suffering but a complete elimination of suffering through positive Action. The concept is a cyclic process called Karma where each Action we make however insignificant has a consequence.

Buddhists are taught that positive Actions include what you do and say as well as what you think. The Action is considered positive as long as there is no Reward for you involved in the action ( it must be self less ) and it has a positive result on the other person involved. This takes considerable concentration, considerable tolerance and considerable patience, therefore the development of these virtues is a central Teaching in Buddhism. This Teaching is known as the Dharma. and the virtues are encompassed in the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path which is divided into 3 categories and each is to be practiced as follows

Wisdom encompassing
1. Right understanding and
2. Right intention

Ethical conduct encompassing
3. Right speech (so as not to offend or denigrate)
4. Right Action
5. Right livelihood (so as not to be employed where killing other
sentient beings is involved)

Mental discipline encompassing
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration.

Your insightful conclusion that there is a need for enlightenment is quite right and well done..... for a novice.../smiles/

To your other conclusion then, that there is a need for submission to a higher power .....in some ways I agree with you.

I disagree that there should be submission, I may be misunderstanding your use of that very charged word....In my mind there is scope for the belief in a Deity and certainly for devotees to worship and follow that Doctrine, I accept that there is a need for the comfort and joy that comes from such devotion and this is something that I would always encourage for that benefit alone and of course that comfort has flow on effects for it is a positive thing.

However I want to point out that there is no positive Action in this regard. Devotees are not doing anything for anyone else, they are deriving the positive benefits of their belief for their personal comfort and feelings perhaps sharing those positive feelings by telling others about them yet it does nothing to address the elimination or 'cure' of negative human desire. Even devotees still 'sin' and require the comfort of their Deity to eliminate the guilt of their 'sin'. This last Action is actually only a partial solution to the 'sin' as it allows 'sin' to continue, therefore there is no inherent change in the original thought process. Do you follow...? It means that the desires inherent in the devotees mind will not be eliminated, so when the desire to swear or denigrate another or laugh at another's faults or such like, the devotee will not automatically think of compassion first, in fact compassion will probably not even enter that person's mind in relationships other than with their Deity.

I hope that I haven't offended with my response, I don't mean to imply that all devotees are selfless and without compassion, I simply point out that the elimination of the root cause of suffering isn't addressed.

Peace from a Buddhist......

Answer 2

A very well thought out question. The three religions that have always been preoccupied with war are of course Jewish, Muslim and Christianity. As you know they all sprang from an ancient Hebrew tribe of uncivilized barbarians wandering through the desert constantly waring with any other tribe they happened to come across. The god of the old testament was certainly a god of war. As a result, we have been conditioned today to accept war as being normal instead of reprehensible. Governments today use religions as a conditioning tool to program the minds of children in preparation for military service. That's why religions enjoy a tax-free status. Can you just imagine approaching a group of ethical humanists and saying that we are organizing a bit of a war, can I interest any of you in signing up !

Answer 3

Are people not still trained as warriors? Does the army not exist for this reason?

How has Christianity apparently improved the mentality of people? The only thing that is different in the power-struggle is the presence of a mediator in the form of organisations such as the UN, and governing super-powers such as the US and EU.

It is not Christianity that has evolved but society. Christianity has simply changed (or been changed) to fit the current situation.

Answer 4

There have always been (spiritually) more evolved and less evolved people in every society.
If the ruler/ruling classes believe in war, the people are forced to fight. Religion has got nothing to do with it.

duffmanhb, I think that part about hierarchy made a lot of sense to me. I'd feel lost without role-models too.

Answer 5

What's changed? People are still power hungry, arrogant, ungrateful, violent and warlike all over the world. Regardless of religion. Submission to higher power doesn't seem to change much. Polytheism brought violence. Monotheism brought genocide. I think it's time for a third option.

Answer 6

Yes, your getting there... religion cures all anxiety! It justifys the unjustifiable. It outcasts the unwanted. It answers the unanswerable. it helps us cope with knowing eventually we die... its the one stop cure all.

From an evolutionary stand point, not only did it help us survive longer and form more complex and efficient societies, it seems almost neccesary for survival at the time.

Also i believe its in our genetics to have a hiarchy system which aids in survival. Be it even foragers have a sort of hierarchy/respect ladder. So we always need some one above us at all times. So when we get to the top, naturally we are going to be looking for orders and answers from above.

Answer 7

When I was a child, I thought and acted like a child.
When I became a man, I put childish things away.


Thoughts and actions of a child.

1) To disobey
2) To want
3) To demand
4) To lie
5) To whine
6) To get their way
7) To pitch a fit
8) To be selfish
9) To learn
10) To grow
11) To be trained
12) To emulate a parent

Thoughts and actions of this world.

1) To desire
2) To work
3) To have
4) To want
5) To accomplish
6) To gain wealth
7) To gain power
8) To be successful
9) To become greedy
10) To grow
11) To be trained
12) To emulate the world

When I became a man, I put childish things away.

1) To obey
2) To become weak
3) To be persecuted
4) To be cursed
5) To be homeless
6) To be brutally treated
7) To be in rags
8) To go hungry and thirsty
9) To be dishonored
10) To be slandered
11) To be fools for Christ
12) To be condemned to die

Obedience vs. Disobedience

Answer 8

Wow! Talk about twisting history to suit your purpose! The advent of christianity has done nothing to end war or violence, add to that many wars are still fought in the name of God or for supposedly divine purpose. Read and learn from history but dont twist it to suit yourself.

Answer 9

Religion has always been a business, a highly competitive business disguised as a belief. Their main interest is power and money, not your soul.

Answer 10

If we accept your premise as true, then the U.S. could not have been involved in the many conflicts we have featured in.