Is this proof God can't exist?

Question

I was reading a book and it had this arguement for God not existing, that I just can't fault. In sound mind and with much thought, I can't get around it. I'm not attacking theist's beliefs, but can a believer not see how crystal clear this is?:


A God, by definition, is all knowing and omnipotent (can do anything)

So, if God knows everything, he knows EXACTLY how he will intervene in our lives in the future - be it through miracles, or answering prayers etc. He will know every minute detail.

If he already knows exactly what he will do, then he can't change his mind.
He couldn't say, be considering option A, then change his mind to option B - there wouldn't have been an option A in the first place since he would have know what his final decision would be.

If he can't change his mind...then he isn't omnipotent - there is something he can't do.

In which case; A God can't exist. A being that knows all and can do anything, does not work.


What's your opinion on this?

Answer 1

I have seen some lame arguments, but this may be the dumbest yet.

God has no reason to ever change Her mind because that would mean that perfection had made an error. This is childish.

God does not consider anything ever. There are no options to consider.

This only makes sense if you have a very juvenile idea of God.

Love and blessings Don.

Answer 2

That depends on your definition of god and omnipotent. The omnipotent paradox already disproves that a being cannot do anything and everything. For example, can god create a rock so big that even he can't lift it? Can god think of something that he can't do? Answering yes or no to either of those questions shows that such a being cannot possibly exist. Theists that believe in an omnipotent god however do not claim that their god can do anything, they admit that he cannot go against his own nature, which makes those questions answerable.

Your argument does however prove however that god of the Bible doesn't exist though. The god of the Bible is omniscient (all knowing) and he makes decisions. That's impossible though, those two properties are mutually exclusive; they cannot both be true at the same time. If god is perfect and all knowing, then his knowledge cannot be wrong. He knows everything that's going to happen in the future for all of time; his future is fixed. If god knows tomorrow that he is going to go to the mall at 5:00, then he cannot decide to go at 6:00 instead because that would mean his knowledge was wrong about going at 5:00. In other words, god has no free will, he cannot make decisions. If god cannot make decisions, he cannot do what is best for us and he is not a personal being that watches over us and cares about us. The god of the Bible has properties that contradict one another, proving that he cannot possibly exist.

Answer 3

No, it is a philosophical argument based on assumptions about what God or a god is or would be like.

There is no proof that any conscious god exists. We cannot however disprove the existence of God, and in normal, scientific logic we don't prove non-existence, we prove existence.

Many people point to our existence as proof of God. We are a statistical improbability, just like surviving the World Trade Center attacks:

>>

Only 20 people survived from the debris after the collapse of the towers:

Fourteen people, including a dozen firefighters, a Port Authority policeman, and civilian secretary Josephine Harris, 59, were in Stairway "B" on the 1st through 6th floors of the North Tower when it collapsed. The firemen had stopped to help escort Josephine from the building at the time of the collapse. They crawled out and were then escorted alive from an air pocket in the debris. The fourteen survivors from stairway B in the North tower include:
(spellings uncertain)

* Firefighter Mickey Kross (Engine Company 16)
* Battalion Chief Rich Picciotto (11th Battalion)
* Firefighter Billy Butler (Ladder 6)
* Firefighter Tommy Falco (Ladder 6)
* Firefighter Ryan Williams (Engine 39)
* Captain Jay Jonas (Ladder 6)
* Firefighter Rob Bacon (Engine 39)
* Firefighter Jeff Coniglio (Engine 39)
* Firefighter Jim Efthimiaddes (Engine 39)
* Officer Dave Lim (Port Authority Police K-9 Unit)
* Firefighter Michael Meldrum (Ladder 6)
* Firefighter Sal D'Agostino (Ladder 6)
* Firefighter Matt Komorowski (Ladder 6)
* Josephine Harris (civilian)

>> (Wikipedia)

Not impossible, just improbable. Divine intervention? I don't think so. There would have had to have been some really evil people in those buildings for any God to justify letting that many innocent people die. An impartial Cosmos I can put my trust in. Speculation about an almighty, punitive, narcissistic God, of whom there is no proof, provides no comfort.

People who use their beliefs as evidence are treading dangerous ground. Jennifer Diane Reitz makes the following delineation between believing and knowing.

“To believe in something is not the same as knowing something. Intrinsic to the concept of belief is (the) implication that there is an opposite to belief, disbelief. Not everyone will believe something is true, but all sane and rational people will acknowledge an observable fact.

The only way belief can be experienced is in the mind. Facts can be experienced both in the mind and by the senses...and what is more, unlike a mental hallucination, the sensory experience can be shared with others.

It is a common error of human beings to allow belief, to allow a mental construct accepted on faith, to become so important, so obsessive, that it is taken as the same thing as fact. Indeed, there are many emotional reasons why a person might be driven to do this, but it still remains that any belief is purely mental whatever it's origin, and the mind can be mistaken.

This means that all beliefs have as part of them an implied doubt. Facts cannot be doubted, they are observably real.

When belief is assumed to be fact, when this mistake is made by a mind clouded by a motivation to assume belief as fact, that belief is considered beyond doubt, just as is a fact.

Beliefs beyond doubt are inherently dangerous. They are dangerous because they are often acted upon as though they were facts, and the inherent weakness of this is that a belief is not a fact.

Beliefs can be, and often are, wrong.” (Jennifer Diane Reitz)

So the short answer to your question is "No." But, then it's up to the believers to prove their case with some real facts, not just philosophic arguments and unaswered questions, like "How did we come to be?"

Answer 4

there is actual data of a God that exists or existed. That data is us. Now seem at it this kind: we are right here, alive and respiration. some kind of existence source had to of created our existence pressure. no matter if God is an effect in area or another being, he does exist. human beings like favor to say it replaced into the large bang that created each little thing. yet how about this: What if the large bang replaced into God? mild count number and darkish count number colliding, may reason the introduction of each little thing. besides the indisputable fact that it is going previous our comprehension. existence can not come from some thing that would not encompass existence. If there replaced into no existence, then there will be no existence. Our body is made from power and that is what God is made from. that's how we are in his image. that would nicely be how he's with anybody in any respect time. when we die, our soul (power) can not die. It ought to both bypass into yet another existence (Reincarnation) or decrease back to the important source. power ought to stay shifting because useless gadgets do not contain power.

Answer 5

We have free will. God doesn't control our every move anymore than you control everything your child does. He lays down rules and hope you obey and administer lessons as you disobey.
Who said God can't change His mind?

God knows the outcome to your decisions and acts accordingly in ways that bring you closer to Him. The option is in your actions, having free will, Gods knows what you are going to do before you do, makes His decision (which that outcome is known as well) and therefore there is no need to change One's mind. So you're statements don't make sense. You or whoever, are under the assumption that God controls us like robots, but all you've done is prove that wrong, not evidence that God is not real.

Also, God not being able to go against His nature, such as breaking a promise, shows that He is under His own authority-making Him God.

Answer 6

Based on your argument alone, being omnipotent doesn't mean you can do anything, it means you know all. You're saying he knows everything and doesn't need option A to exist since option B will prevail.

On the other hand, you're saying since he already knows everything, he CAN'T change his mind. Who said this?? He can do whatever he wants to do. If he really wanted to change his mind, I don't think he'd need to ask permission.

Being omnipotent and being able to change his mind are two different things.

This being said... HOW does this prove God doesn't exist. If I take what you say to be true (which i don't) that tells me that he is flawed (which he isn't) but nothing about your argument comes NEAR an explanation as to why he can't exist.

Answer 7

Can god create a rock that is so heavy that he himself cannot lift? If he can, then it means that something can be too heavy for him too lift, thus negating his omnipotence. If he can't create it, then there is something else he can't do. Anyway you slice it, he can't be omnipotent. Its similar to what you are asking. But by experience, religious people are not concerned about logic or truth. If they were, they wouldn't use a word such as faith, which means belief in something that cannot be proven. What they are interested in is defending their religion, so its basically pointless to ask these questions since they will most likely be sidestepped up and down.

Answer 8

Adam, some literature can sound so rational.. that it's believable. Yet, unfortanately for you.. there exists such people as me. God is bigger than idealogies of man and philosophical poetry, He's God and He can do what He wants whether or not you believe or not. Before things get twisted, a person, meaning you, should know that Amid the FACT that God is real, omnipotent, omnipresent, sovereign, Holy, Mighty, Powerful, Loving.... He's a God that delights in having a relationship with His children. Love covers a multitude of sin!!!!!!!!!!!! doesn't that mean anthing to you? look it up please!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Answer 9

My opinion: I define "god" differently.

Not every religion sees gods as omniscient, omnipotent beings; far from it, in fact. Many religions have gods that are not "perfect" either.

I do not believe there is such a being as something that is omniscient and omnipotent. The concept seems impossible to me. If this were truly the definition of a god, I would agree, no such being could possibly exist, but I do not believe gods are so...almighty.

Perhaps you have disproven others', but you have not disproven my gods.

Answer 10

God could change your mind and everything about you. However, He doesn't because that was one of the things that he gave humans: free will. The will to choose what they want to do with their lives, whether it's follow Him or not.

The fact is that He could intervene and control your life and make it what He wants it to be, but the fact is that in doing so, you're just like a robot or a toy, not something living with the choice to love Him or not.

The whole concept behind our creation in Christianity is that God created humans with the design of being able to love Him back voluntarily, not forcefully. To force someone to love you is no longer love.

EDIT: Think about it this way. You're a parent. You tell your kid, "Don't touch the burning stove." You know they're not going to listen to you because it's something that you told them not to do. It turns out they do it anyway, they start crying, and so on and so forth. The fact that you know the kid is going to do it is one thing, but giving them the choice to do so is another.