Jehovah's Witnesses...?

Question

In paragraphs 13 & 14, pg.146 of "You Can LIve Forever in Paradise on Earth", it's alleged that Jesus' return referred to in Rev.1:7 is not visible and that He will only be seen in "..the sense of discerning or perceiving" and not literally (!). Reference is also made to those who "pierced him" as being not literal descendants of the Jewish nation that rejected & killed Christ, but rather, "..persons who, by hurting Christ's present - day followers, copy the conduct of those first - century men". As Rev. 1:7 clearly corresponds with Zechariah 12:10, how does the WT explain away the fact that the grieving one's who look on the Christ that they pierced are obviously Jews in this passage ? "And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and entreaties, and they will certainly look to the One they pierced through..". Also, the rest of the chapter refers to the mourning of specific Jewish tribes & families! Answers ?

Hi coffee b.

The scripture that you quote pertained to motives for preaching the gospel and not the quality or validity of what was being said. Paul was not condoning the proclamation of a salvation - by - works pseudo - gospel. This he condemned in his letter to the Galatians (1:6 - 9).

Thanks for your reply.

May the Lord bless you.

DevO - thanks for your reply.

If you are going to be a J.W., that's your choice. But would you at least take the time to scrutinise their teaching & history, as you say that you are not "well versed" ?

www.watchthetower.com

www.letusreason.org

May God graciously guide you into all truth.

For all those replies that claim a question was not asked -

"...how does the WT explain away the fact that the grieving one's who look on the Christ that they pierced are obviously Jews in this passage ?".

May God bless you.

Nice answer Suzanne B.

However, how will the J.W's know what such documents (& errors in their "theology") are unless someone raises the subject with them ? It's unlikely (though not impossible) that they will check it out for themselves with no prompting.

May the Lord bless you.

Hi yikes_its_me, thanks for your reply.

In regard to God's purposes for the nation of Israel, may I respectfully suggest that you read Romans chapter 11. This puts paid to any notion that God has finished with literal Israel. History also testifies to that fact: the state of Israel was re - established in 1948 & the Old City of Jerusalem came back under Israeli control following the 6 - Day War of 1967.

Ezekiel 36:24

May God graciously guide you into all truth.

Also, regarding the name of "Jehovah", it is not even an accurate rendering of God's name. Scholars are uncertain as to the correct pronunciation, but many suggest that "Yahweh" is the closest. The WT incorrectly render the Greek word "kurios" as Jehovah in the NT, even though it is not in the original text.

The WT pride themselves on the use of the name "Jehovah", often using the argument that as we address others by firstnames, so we should do the same with God. However, when the Lord Jesus taught His disciples a pattern for prayer, He told them to use the term, "Father", not "Jehovah".
The term denotes intimacy between God & His people. Paul writes in Romans 8:15 of how true believers have received the Spirit of adoption by whom they cry out, "Abba, Father". Those who are truly born - again know God as such.

Alex M -

Would you please care to answer the question ?

How can the WT teach that those who look on Christ who they pierced in Rev. 1:7 are people in opposition to the WT, when the corresponding passage of Zechariah 12:10 in the OT (and it's context) clearly shows that they are Jews ?

TeeM - you claim that I have too many different points. I disagree. There appear to be only two - the nature of Christ's parousia and the identity of the grieving ones who pierced Him in both Rev. 1:7 & Zechariah 12:10.

You have actually not answered my question regarding how the WT can justify their identification of the grieving ones as opponents of J.W's, when Zechariah 12:10 clearly shows that they are literal Jews. Would you care to do so ? Verses 12 & 13 refer to the houses of Nathan, Levi & Shimei. Obviously Jews.

In regard to John 19:34, Jesus was pierced by the Jews through the Roman soldier. It was Jews who betrayed Him & coerced Pilate into killing Him, as the scripture clearly says. John 19:37 confirms this by quoting from Zech. 12:10, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced". Does the original passage mention anything about Romans ?

Any possibility of a concise answer to my question from a J.W. ?

Again - how can the WT teach that the grieving ones who look on the Christ whom they pierced, be anything other than literal Jews, as shown in Zechariah 12:10, which corresponds with Revelation 1:7 ?

Thanks in advance for all answers.

Also - I am not attacking "Christ's brothers" as you claim, TeeM. I am merely questioning the validity of the WT interpretation of scripture, which on a free - speech forum, I am entitled to do. At no point have I used abusive or threatening language. You in turn are entitled to express the Watchtower's (frankly) narrow & inaccurate opinion of any expression of Christianity outside of their organisation.

By the grace of God, I am Jesus' brother.

Trustdell1 -

The nature of Jewish prophecy is that it can have partial fulfillments & multiple applications. A good example is the NT use of Hosea 11:1 in Matthew 2:15, "Out of Egypt I called My Son". In it's original context, the statement concerns God's deliverance of the Jews from Egypt. Using the Rabbinical method, the Jewish author of Matthew reapplies it to Jesus. John does the same thing with Zechariah 12:10 in John 19:37. That does not mean complete fulfillment.

This apparent taking out of context OT verses is found throughout the the NT. It may seem invalid to the western mindset, but for the Jew it is totally valid. The Bible was written almost entirely by Jews. The apostles were Jews. Zechariah 12:10 still has to be fulfilled literally.

TeeM - In your edit, you claim that Revelation 1:7 & Zechariah 12:10 are unrelated - "Rev. 1:7 is not referring to Zech, prophecy".

Okay. Let's juxtapose the two scriptures -

"And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn" Zechariah 12:10.

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen." Revelation 1:7.

Any truly objective student of the Bible must surely acknowledge that there is (at the very least) a similarity between the two texts...

Even if the two passages were unrelated, that still leaves the question - who are the grieving ones in Zechariah 12:10 ?
If the two texts do not correspond with each other (as you claim), and therefore the ones who pierced Christ referred to in Rev. 1:7 are different from those in Zech. 12:10, who are the ones in Zech 12:10 ?
You might answer that they are the ones who (through the Roman authorities) pierced the Lord at His first coming, but there's a problem with such reasoning.
In John 19:37, part of Zechariah 12:10 is fulfilled, but not all. What about the various mourning houses of Israel (Zech.12:11 -14) ? There is no mention of that part being fulfilled in John or any of the gospel accounts.
The answer is simple - The events in Zech. 12 & Rev. 1:7 do correspond. Zech. 12 was partially fulfilled in John 19, and will be totally fulfilled at Jesus' second coming, His literal, open parousia. The grieving ones in Zech & Revelation are Jews (along with Gentiles in Rev. 1:7).

For an interesting article on the Hebraic method of Biblical exegesis, go to -

www.moriel.org

Click on UK ministry

Then click on Teachings

Click sermons

Then click on the Midrash article (by James Jacob Prasch)

Trustdell1 -

If Zech 12:10 was totally fulfilled in Jesus' time as you claim, than what about the the mourning also mentioned in verse 10 ? As I have already said, the piercing element was fulfilled on the occasion of Christ's death, but what about the mourning ? Nothing in the gospels about that.
You really ought to check out the Moriel article on Midrash, in order to gain a better understanding of the nature of Jewish Biblical prophecy.

PapaBear -

I fear that they have the truth ?

If I really believed that the truth was in the WT organisation, I would be part of them, make no mistake about that. However, their many false doctrines, often "justified" by over - spiritualized, frankly ludicrous distortions of scripture at the expense of what the Bible clearly says, have only led me to conclude that the WT is a serious deviation from Biblical Christianity.
A prime example of the WT's irresponsible exegesis of God's word is found in Luke 21, where the trampled Jerusalem referred to by Jesus has been spiritualized by the WT in order to support their teaching that the Gentile times ended in 1914, in spite of the fact that the context clearly shows that a literal Jerusalem is referred to.

Regarding the KJV - you are of course, referring to the translation which was used by the Bible Students under CT Russell & by the WT at least up until the 1950's ?

For the record and just to dispel any possible stereotypical notions that J.W's might have concerning me -

I am not and have never been part of the Roman Catholic or Anglican organisations. In fact I am opposed to the papacy & the many RC false doctrines, particularly their elevation of "Mary" and their idolatary. Much of Anglicanism is also corrupt.

I meet with a church that is overseen not by Priests or Vicars, but by brothers in Christ who are addressed by their first names. We have no crosses, no statues, or incense in the building where we assemble. The main meeting consists of the Bible being preached & hymn singing. There is a meal afterwards & time for informal fellowship, followed by group Bible study. It's not perfect, but I believe that it is close to the Biblical model & there's not a mass in sight!

Natesgirlks -

Regarding every eye seeing Christ "at once" - the text does not say "at once". However, with the advent of satellite TV & the internet it will be possible for billions of people to see Christ simultaneously. In addition, Matthew 25:32 says that all the nations will be gathered before Him. The Lord can use His myriads of angels to carry out that task.

Also, following God's judgements upon the earth, there will be a considerably smaller world poulation anyhow (Rev. 9:18, for example)...

Regarding the "mourners" at Jesus' death - although there may have been a few genuine mourners, the Jewish tradition of expressing "sorrow" by beating the breast would not necessarily indicate true contrition, just as our saying "sorry" doesn't. It's often just a polite, "appropriate" expression used in certain circumstances. A crowd of onlookers at Jesus execution hardly represents a "great mourning in Jerusalem" (Zech. 11:11) including the houses of David, Nathan, Levi, Shimei & all the families that remain (verses 12 - 14). this passage speaks of something bigger - the genuine contrition of literal Israel, who will experience the gracious salvation of their Lord at His second coming.

Answer 1

I think that is an excellent question for them and really strikes at the root of what is wrong with the JW theology. Its a shame that so many have criticized what you wrote.


coffe b - think the whole point of what is being asked is that Christ is not being proclaimed in JW theology.

Answer 2

Please note that the web sight that Suzanne gave is not authentic. It is a slander sight, filled w/lies. For a credible sight please go to www.watchtower.org.

Now as far as your question goes, I can see that you are really grasping at straws to try to prove the witnesses wrong. I have never seen such a long question, and all those add-ons, wow!

Please note Rev. 1:7; Clouds are used in connection suggests invisibility rather then visibility, this also applies to "seeing" can also refer to figurative sight or perception with the mind and heart. Please see Isa 44:18; Jer 5:21; Eze 12:2,3; Mt 13:13-16; Eph 1:17,18) Jesus likewise used "blindness" figuratively as well or spiritually-that is to note spiritual blindness not literal blindness.

Another point of reason on Jesus' return being physically invisible is by Jesus' own words seen at; Joh 6:51, also remember Jesus likened our day with Noah's day in that people took no note until the watery destruction came upon them " and so the presence of the Son of man will be"

So it is very important to take in spiritual knowledge so that we can be spiritually awake!!! So during the meeting we want to take in spiritual food and look up all the Scriptures, and then after we can enjoy the lovely view.

btw-If the Kingdom Hall does not have windows it is because that area has a high risk of vandalism.

Answer 3

What a good q and what interesting answers! Garland - that's a good point (though nothing to do with the q!) about few windows in Kingdom Halls so as to prevent distraction from the platform. A lot of KHs have tiny ones, but others have big windows. I saw a KH with a big, picture window that looked over a glorious scene to the island of Scalpay, and the Scottish West coast beyond. This was on the Island of Skye. People would die for that view! BUT all the chairs had their backs to that window! All the JWs had to sit with their backs to the view, looking at a blank wall and the platform! 'Nuff said?

Now, serious stuff. TeeM - that's rich, a JW complaining that a questioner has too many points! Kettles and pans come to mind.

Trustdell - The best answer so far. Full marks for answering one part of the question with appropriate scriptures and good reasoning. There's hope for you if you open your mind to the possibility that both literal AND symbolic interpretations could obtain. But you fell apart at the seams disowning the Bible truth that "every eye will see him" at his VISIBLE return. Jesus said his return would be like lightning that comes from the east and is visible even in the west. Though people turn their backs to the window (and JWs on Skye do it more than most) such a lightning flash is STILL seen in the room, it is so brilliant, so reflective, so startling. Even those who don't want to see Jesus will see him. Even the blind will be made to see. Or don't you think Jesus is up to such miracles any more?

Another consideration: sunrise 'begins' (from our human perspective) in the Antipodes and goes from east to west (what should that remind you of?) If that's the 'course' of Jesus' coming then it will have a 'rolling' effect and will enable all nations to see the event. Have you no imagination? Think even of Jesus saying he's coming with the clouds... clouds of what? Water vapour? Or clouds of angels? Get thinking! Get excited! Get ready! For sure, he will come so suddenly and so unexpectedly that we are in danger of being caught by surprise, and won't be prepared, like the foolish virgins. We all need to get some oil in our lamps now, while we can!

Answer 4

The spiritual Israel are those that worship Jehovah and accept Jesus as God's Son and King, In which Jehovah made him.

It is not talking about Jews literally. The Jews as a nation, lost God's favor. Salvation is open ot the entire world.

Im not a Jehovah's Witness but I like what they teach. There bible is exactly the same as everyone elses, they just re-printed God's real name and in the original scriptures. Instead of God or Lord, the real name of God appears as Jehovah.

Answer 5

You must really fear that they have the truth.

Remember, the KJV was revised five times over a 150 year period until to fit the teachings of the Church of England and was Authorized.

Answer 6

Briefly, cause you have too many different points.

Rev 1:7, Is describing "eyes of faith"

(1 Tim 6: 14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. )

Since Jesus was resurrected as a spirit person, and has been given immortality, Man can not see him at his manification or coming)

(1 Cor 15:45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.)

Rev 1:7 "pierced him" Revelation is referencing future events, Please note it was a Roman who pierced Jesus, not the jews

(John 19: 34 Yet one of the soldiers jabbed his side with a spear, )

Again since it is a future event and Jesus is in heaven and you can not pierce him.

Matt 25:40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’

So by attacking Jesus' brothers today you are piercing Jesus.

- edit -

'You' in regards to attacking Christ's brothers was not intended to mean be you personally.

Rev 1:7 is not referring to Zech, prophecy.

It is referring to future events or Events in the Lord's day. Rev 1:10
and not what happened in 33 CE.

Answer 7

These are the exact paragraphs you refer to:

13 How, then, are we to understand the words of Revelation 1:7? There the apostle John writes: “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him.” Here the Bible speaks of seeing, not with physical eyes, but in the sense of discerning or perceiving. Thus, when a person comprehends or understands a matter, he may say, ‘I see it.’ The Bible, in fact, speaks of “the eyes of your understanding.” (Ephesians 1:18, King James Version) So the expression “every eye will see him” means that everyone will then understand or recognize that Christ is present.

14 Those who actually “pierced” Jesus are no longer alive on earth. So they represent persons who, by hurting Christ’s present-day followers, copy the conduct of those first-century men. (Matthew 25:40, 45) The time will soon come for Christ to execute such wicked ones. They have been warned in advance about this. When this execution takes place, they will “see” or recognize what is happening. And their grief will indeed be great!


Throughout the book of Revelation clouds are used symbolically and hence represent something other than literal clouds in the sky. If Christ came in a human body certainly not every eye on earth could see him at once; so that must not be literal. Those who pierced him are dead and could not see him. So the seeing and the piercing of him must be in a symbolic way.

We must appreciate that what John saw and was told to write to the congregations was not just a series of unrelated visions, haphazardly recorded. No, the entire book of Revelation, from beginning to end, gives us a coherent picture of things to come, going from one vision to another until the full disclosure of God’s Kingdom purposes is reached at the end of the visions. We should therefore see the book of Revelation as a whole and as made up of related, harmonious parts, transporting us far into the future from John’s time.

But how are we to understand Revelation 1:7, which indicates that even unbelievers would “see him”, and who are those who have pierced him? Literally, Roman soldiers did this, but they have long been dead. (John 19:23, 32-34) So these words must have some other significance. Jesus himself supplies the clue in his parable of the ‘sheep and the goats’ when he says: “To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.” (Matt. 25:31-46) Therefore, those nations and individuals that mistreat or ‘pierce’ Christ’s disciples on earth in this 20th century are counted as ‘piercing’ Christ during this time of his invisible presence. And they will be made to know the seriousness of what they have done and who is judging them. Yes, “all the tribes of the earth” will “see,” or mentally perceive, Christ’s presence and revelation by reason of the sudden change of circumstances that will come upon them. They will come to realize that Christ is ruling in judgment, but not in their favor. They will have good reason to beat themselves in grief.

As for your question regarding Zech 12:10:

The most convincing proof of the book of Zechariah's divine inspiration, however, is to be found in the fulfillment of its prophecies concerning the Messiah, Christ Jesus, as can be seen by comparing Zechariah 9:9 with Matthew 21:4, 5 and John 12:14-16; Zechariah 12:10 with John 19:34-37; and Zechariah 13:7 with Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27. Also, there are the similarities to be noted between Zechariah 8:16 and Ephesians 4:25; Zechariah 3:2 and Jude 9; and Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 14. The harmony found in God’s Word is truly marvelous!

Whereas the first eight chapters deal with matters of more present importance to the people of Zechariah’s day, in chapters 9 to 14 the prophet looks forward into a more distant future.

Some of those used as tools to accomplish Jesus’ impalement realized their mistake and became frightened; the crowds that had sanctioned the piercing smote their breasts when they saw their blunder, and later some involved ones repented and followed Christ. (Matt. 27:54; Luke 23:47, 48; Acts 2:23, 36-42) But the only bitterness and mourning that hit the religious instigators of the piercing was when things did not work out fully for their selfish interests. The ones who truly mourned were his faithful followers. (Luke 24:17) But as Zechariah 12:10 also foretold, about this time Jehovah’s spirit was poured out upon the faithful remnant of natural Israel, at Pentecost. So the text had its miniature fulfillment.

At the second presence of Christ Jesus the complete fulfillment takes place. Any mourning by those "piercers" is in selfish fear when they see coming upon them the dire consequences of their acts. The only true mourning is on the part of Jehovah’s people who had allowed themselves to fall short of their duties and be taken captive in Satan’s worldly system and made inactive in Jehovah’s service. But Jehovah comes to the rescue of this remnant of spiritual Israel, cleans them up, pours out his spirit or active force upon them, and under the enthroned King Christ Jesus the work is revived. (Matt. 25:40, 45; Rev. 1:7; 11:1-13) Their mourning gives way to gladness.

Answer 8

The Bible hope of lasting peace for obedient humans will be fulfilled through the Kingdom of God. “Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth,” said Jesus in his model prayer. (Matthew 6:10) Yes, only God’s Kingdom can ensure that God’s will is done on earth. Why? Because that heavenly Kingdom—a government in the hands of Jesus Christ—is God’s means of expressing His rightful sovereignty over the earth.—Psalm 2:7-12; Daniel 7:13, 14.

As King of that heavenly Kingdom, Jesus Christ will liberate obedient humans from every form of bondage, including the viselike grip of Adamic sin and its legacy of sickness and death. Says Revelation 21:3, 4: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind . . . And he [Jehovah God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Lasting peace will prevail earth wide. Why can we be sure of that? The reason is revealed at Isaiah 11:9, which says: “They [the Kingdom’s subjects] will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.” Yes, every human on earth will have accurate knowledge of God and be obedient to him. Does that prospect warm your heart? If so, now is the time to begin taking in the precious “knowledge of Jehovah.”

Answer 9

No windows means; no vandalism due to the hatred for JW's. Also, serves to cut down on loss of energy through heat and a/c thru windows.
Distractions. They don't want any of the members to be distracted from their message by looking around but fully placing their attention upon the speaker at the podium.

Answer 10

The only true answer is that the JWs are in serious spiritual darkness. Their beliefs are characterized by Replacement Theology, which is why they believe they're "Spiritual Israel" and that the 144,000 are all JWs and not Jews!

Here's a good source of information on JW beliefs:

http://blueletterbible.org/study/cults/exposejw/chap1.html

There are actual copies of documents that prove the WTBS has repeatedly lied to JWs; that the NWT was "translated" by men who couldn't read, write or speak Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic; that the WTBS is a false prophet, etc. Really, the best thing to do is not to argue, but let the documents speak for themselves. It's between the Holy Spirit and them.

Peace.

EDIT: "coffee b," the JWs preach "another Jesus." This doesn't qualify as the Gospel.

Answer 11

In the beginning of the Russel movement they did believe in the physical return, but sense that didn't happen they now say it was an invisible return. Now!! Why can you ask these q. about the witnesses and when I do I get a violation e-mail telling me they deleted my Q. I told them they had already posted and best answers were picked already.My questions are true to the bone questions that deserve are true to life answers. I don't know?
maybe I need to ask what color these girls pantie are to get posted.
I through crying now