Joe Torre had a terrible record with the Mets, Braves and Cards. I think my mom could win with the Yankees...

Question

Is Torre a good manager or simply a product of the right situation? Not looking at his playing career, is he the most overrated person in the history of professional sports?

Answer 1

As a manager, SIMPLY AWFUL. Torre is good pals with King George, thus Torre keeps his job at the helm every year. It's not an easy job, of course, considering all the talent and money in that dug out. Regardless, I'm sure there are other managers who could do better in the playoffs than Brooklyn Joe.

Answer 2

I don't think he's the most overrated guy, but I do agree with the premise of what you're saying.

As with most managers, Torre can win when you give him a great bunch of players, and he'll lose when he doesn't have the horses. That's not a knock on him, just a fact - even the best manager can only have so much effect on a team. Has Torre hurt the Yankees? No, I don't think so. But has he helped them? Maybe a little, but it's mostly been thanks to the fact that they annually throw out a group of well-paid all-stars. My feeling is that most competent managers could win with such a group.

Before coming to New York, Torre was really considered nothing more than an average manager, and a guy whose time was past. The things said about him were similar to those said about another guy who lost horribly before coming to New York - Casey Stengel, who had nine straight losing seasons in Brooklyn and Boston before being given a loaded team.

I think Torre is a decent manager, but make no mistake - the Yankees win because of the players, not the manager. He might be good at massaging egos, but it's the guys hitting, pitching and fielding who make or break that team.

Answer 3

Most overrated person in the history of sports???


That's a ridiculous statement to make. If you look at the Yankee teams that won in the '90s, they did not have as much talent as the Yankee teams that can't win now. Torre had a bunch of solid players, and very good pitching. Now he has more talent and can't win, he did more with less when the Yankees were winning.

Every coach or manager that wins has a lot of talent. Look at Phil Jackson. He had Jordan, Pippen, and a ton of very good players. When he won with the Lakers, he had Shaq in his prime and Kobe. Look at Red Auerbach with the Celtics. What about Chuck Noll when he coached the Steelers to 4 Super Bowls? They were loaded. Every coach who wins is a product of the right situation.

With Torre, he has some lousy teams with the Mets, and he took the Braves, who were horrible, to the playoffs. Herzog quit because he knew the Cards were going to be lousy for a long time, and Torre inherited his mess. You have to look at the big picture and all the facts before you make such an outrageous and erroneous statement.

Answer 4

It may not take a great manager to win the division and make the playoffs a few years in a row with a large payroll. But having a large payroll doesn't predestine you to do anything in the post season, and making the playoffs every year for 11 in a row is remarkable regardless. For instance, the teams with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th highest payrolls in 2006 (Red Sox, Angels, White Sox) didn't even make the playoffs, with eight spots available.

During the Yankees glory years of the late 90's (their three in a row world championships), they had the highest payroll by $3 million over the Dodgers in 2000; the highest payroll by $7 million over Texas in 1999; and the second highest payroll (behind Baltimore by $7 million) in 1998. In 1998, their greatest year, their payroll only exceeded the Indians and Braves by $4 million.

If payroll was an absolute determinant of post season performance, the Yankees post-2000 should have been more successful than the pre-2000 Yankees, when the opposite is actually true. Also, if the payroll ordained the Yankees winning those three championships from 1998-2000 and Torre had nothing to with it, what happened to the 2000 Dodgers, the 1999 Rangers and the 1998 Orioles, all of whom had comparable payrolls to the Yankees during those years?

Answer 5

He's not the most overrated person in the history of sports, by far. However, he has been blessed with a lot of talent as manager of the Yankees. In addition, I am sure he learned a lot from his experiences with The Braves, Cardinals, and Mets. Give the guy due credit. He managed to win with a group of highly pain overrated prima donnas.

Chow!!

Answer 6

A good question and a lot of good points from almost everyone. A nice writeup by Craig S comparing Torre to Stengal and I agree with LibraLove that Don Zimmer probably had a great influence on the winning Yankee teams in the 90's. Torre's good at mollifying and pacifying the superstars and wouldn't handle a younger team (re: Tampa Bay) as well.

And to be fair to Torre, he managed some god-awful teams with the Mets and Braves in the late 70's. This was the Mets lineup in 1979 (and their BA) when they won only 63 games:

C - John Stearns .243 (but he could steal bases)
1B - Willie Montanez .234 (the biggest hotdog this side of Reggie Jackson)
2B - Doug Flynn .243 (I see a trend here)
SS - Frank Taveras .263 (stole 42 bases)
3B - Richie Hebner .268 (shoulda stayed in Pittsburgh)
OF - Joel Youngblood .275 (led team with 16 homeruns!)
OF - Lee Mazzilli .303 (the Italian Scallion)
OF - Steve Henderson .268 (never blossomed)

and Ed Kranepool was still on the roster. Craig Swan wasted his career in New York - could have been somebody on a better team. Mike Scott got smart and left town in time.

So yeah, Torre is a product of the good players that he is surrounded by.

Answer 7

Almost all coaches/managers are overrated, including Torre. Coaches/managers are also way too often fired as a scapegoat for a bad team. In the end, it comes down to the people on the field/court/ice whether a team wins or loses.

I think anyone with a small amount of knowledge about baseball and a $200 million bankroll could win.

Answer 8

This is like the whoel idea that Phil Jackson was the mastermind behind the 9 rings he has. I am sure he had something to do with it but when you have Jorden Pippin and those others how can yuo lose? Torre's main job is controling the big heads that rome around the locker room. He has been doing a good job at that but AROD will soon be the death of him. Coaches like Leland should be commended for their efforts Minor league coachs are the ones who have it the worst and are the smartest out of them all. They work and develop skills with out them the big league teams would flop.

Answer 9

You may not believe this but he probably has one of the hardest managerial jobs in the game. He has to put up with the New York media, Mr. Steinbrenner, and the egos of all his players. Mixing and matching line up as easy as you think it is can cause chaos in the club house. Remember the way Sheffield acted when he wasn't in the line up? Torre probably has to think about situations like that every day. The only constant he had in his line up all year was Damon leading off and pretty much Jeter number 2 although he had his share of games hitting third. Basically, my point is you can have all the talent in the world but if you don't know how to keep the egos from blowing up then you will have yourself the New York Knicks.

Answer 10

Probably not the most overrated but right up there. You will not see me complain though as a Red Sox fan because the Skanks would have won a few more titles with a different coach the past few years. I am not sure what they are thinking over there.
A manager cant make a good team win it all because the players still have to live up to their talent but he can certainly help a good team lose.