Isn't religious faith consistent with random guessing?

Question

Suppose Jesus ascended into heaven. People saw it happen; some were disciples. They went and told people about it. It's a fact.

Now suppose a group of Dadaists or typewriting monkeys collectively made an identical copy of the Gospels, by random guessing.

Would you still be a believer in Jesus' ascension if you were convinced by a book written by a typewriting monkey?

If there is no preference for tracing testimony back to evidence, then beliefs formed in relation to random causes are just as valid as those formed by reasonable ones.

Why not call faith what it is? Belief despite lack of evidence; belief based on improbable or possibly corrupt causes.

Dierdre H, your answer prohibits a short reply. However, you've made points that I agree with. Namely, that there is a history of testimony, and that it is importantly tied to the events, whatever they may be.

The question is about what value we place on true beliefs as opposed to seeming-true beliefs. If a religion doesn't make any distinction than falsities may incur.

(The possibility that a room of typewriting monkeys wrote the Gospels may be infanitesimally improbable, but so is anything supernatural-- the point is that Faith is held true no matter the cause.)

billydavisii, I agree that people ordinarily don't question their everyday activities, but disagree with respect to the formation of a bridge by random measures. It entirely matters to me that there are experts that design and calculate with precision, and contractors that use state-of-the-art care in building such structures.

Answer 1

You misunderstand faith. You have faith that a steel and concrete bridge will get you across a river. Would it matter to you if a bunch of dirt-throwing monkeys accidentally lucked onto a combination of minerals that resulted in the proper materials? Of course that's never going to happen, nor did it happen with God's Word.

You believe a bridge will get you to the other side because you have previous experience with bridges, not because you understand how it was made or where the materials came from.

Faith in God (regardless of religion) is not choosing to follow a religious teaching because you're afraid of the consequences if you don't. Faith in God is part of a tested and tried relationship developed over time. Child-like faith is another subject - but aside from that anything else is just superstition, including Atheism.

Answer 2

Unfortunately, your position fails. Typewriting monkeys would have to type for a virtual eternity before coming up with something such as the Bible. There have been computer programs written to randomly type characters to see how long it would take to create a bit of text which makes sense. To date, nothing aproaching the size of a short story has yet been accomplished.

More advanced programs have been written to create poetry or short stories using words, rather than characters, utilizing artificial intelligence as a means of properly choosing words. Even these still seem artificial, and devoid of the nuances of expression found in works created by real people. Perhaps some improvement has happened over the years in this particular area, but it's still not the real thing.

Then, an artificially created work suddenly appearing has no provenance whatsoever. The Bible has such provenance, with portions of it having been used for some 4000 years. The fact that scribes took especial care in the copying of the scriptures, and that it was considered a sacred job testify to it's accuracy.

While we have no external proof of the eleven who claim to have seen Christ rise to heaven, we know for a fact that these people did testify to that fact. What we are relying on isn't a document that came into existence at random, but rather the testimony of those who originally spoke what they claimed to be the truth. This is actually nothing less than relying on multiple witnesses in a court. The Bible is their testimony, handed down for generations.

While one may choose to ignore it, or not believe it, one cannot argue reasonably that it is simply a random document, of no more worth than the output of so many monkeys at typewriters. It is a written testimony, and the only thing left to question is whether or not the authors were writing to confirm something that may not have actually happened. The authors may have been corrupt, as you state, or they may not have, but their story has persisted, and likely will.

Religion has always been a matter of faith, and believing the message is what it's all about. Atheism has no such message, but it does in essence take on faith that scripture is wrong. There is no physical proof that there is no God. What the religious call miracles, the atheist calls randomness or chance. The religious believes that God cured what medicine called incurable; the atheist says that the body mounted a defense that while spectacular, it was not due to divine intervention. Neither side is capable of proving absolutely its position.

In the end, it comes down, always, to the fact that people will believe what works for them. Ridiculing either side for their position is simply ignorant because neither has absolute proof, and the more enlightened on either side willl admit that. It seems the ones who whish to argue the point tend to be the ones who are more insecure in their positions. Perhaps they are trying to convince themselves more than anyone else.

No matter what science accomplishes, it will not be able to prove the non-existence of God. Genseis disproved as fact, evolution proved as fact, would only accomplish proving that Genesis is, as many belive, alegorical. Science may be able to prove some day, that God isn't necessary for much of what has transpired in the creation of a universe. Even that doesn't disprove that some deity exists.

Then again, ESP or past lives or telekenesis might be proved. A Ghost Hunters might provide some indisputable documentation of a haunting. None of this would prove the existence of a God. Even if a being came to Earth, claiming to be God, with power sufficient to lift Mt. Everest off the ground some 100 feet or so. What proof would we have that this was really a GOD, and not some extraterrestrial being with unimaginable technology?

The only thing I think we can be certain of is this: When we die, if their is a God, or if there is an afterlife of any kind, we'll know for certain. If there is not, we'll be dead, and have no thought or spirit to know anything. Up until that point, we've only got our beliefs, our faith, our understanding. If you wish to spend your time arguing about it, go ahead; I'll not stop you. I'll just be spending my time trying to live a life that I can be proud of. I might fail at times, but I certainly know that I can't convince someone that what they truly believe is wrong. Why should I spend my time trying to do so?

Answer 3

Faith cannot be granted by books, even if the evidence was traced as you suggest. You look inside yourself, and you either see the divine smiling back at you, or you do not. That is the essence of faith. I'll take direct experience over a book any day.

Answer 4

I agree NO religious part(you now the god,goddess,etc) of a religion and be proven but some BELIEFS can be.

Answer 5

If over 500 people witnessed you running walking through wal-mart, wouldn't that be pretty strong evidence that you were there?

Answer 6

because when you truley have the Lord, you do not need a bible. He will show you what is right. Many who have never seen or read a bible have the Lord, and can call scriptures from the bible.

Answer 7

BELIEF IS TRUST AND TRUST IS FAITH
“WE TRUST IN GOD” MEANS WE BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF FAITH IN GOD.

Generally, faith is what you believe, even if you do not believe in believing it will be called your faith. In the world of faith, no one is a non-believer except those who declare themselves as Non-believers of One Alone GOD, by act or by word.
To understand faith, you must understand love. Love is a feeling, which keeps on changing and shivering. Sometimes it is minimized and sometimes it is maximized. To get balanced feeling, one needs to say “I love you” to express love and all those who are in love, keep on saying ”I love you” to assure their love, time to time and moment to moment as much as the feeling demands and feeling depends upon the potence of ones love.
As you know, just saying “I love you” cannot cause peace of heart but much more is desired to convey love and to gain satisfaction. Then gifts to show love are given to the beloveds and then time and services both are rendered to the beloveds to prove loyalty of love.
If you understand what a real love is, then you can easily understand the real faith in GOD because faith in GOD is same as one’s love and to balance the soul and body everyone needs to perform the same things which are performed in love such as by saying:
“There is no god but One Alone GOD, our Lord.”
“No one is good but One Alone GOD, our Lord.”
“There is no one who is our saviour but One Alone
GOD, the saviour of all.”
And that is not enough, one must keep on thanking GOD, Praising GOD, Serving GOD and Worshipping GOD with all of one’s heart, with all of one’s soul, with all of one’s energy and to prove one’s loyalty, one must follow the commandments of GOD our Lord. If one will do all what is required in love for the faith in GOD, one will be declared as the real servant of GOD our Lord and all acts of one will prove that one honourd one’s GOD our Lord and that is what one requires for salvation.
Please keep in mind:
1- Those who act against the commandments of GOD are sinners.
2- Sinners do not honour their GOD their Lord.
3- Those who do not honour their GOD their Lord are enemies of GOD the Lord of all.
4- Enemies of GOD the Lord of all will be punished here and will be thrown in hell there, after the judgment.
Beware please, the devil calls towards sins and saviours, a way not shown by the GOD through testaments and commandments.
“READ THOSE WHO HAVE EYES WITH VISION”

Faith is same for all religions and religions are the ways to follow the commandments of our GOD our Lord and the religions are the teachings to perform the acts according to the revealed books by the GOD our Lord through norms as taught by the messengers of GOD and there is no religion which teaches to perform bad deeds, commit sins and crimes except those which are Satan led.
Difference between faith and religion is simple. Faith, according to the teachings is:
1- Believe in GOD as One Alone and Only GOD.
2- Acceptance of the commandments of GOD for acts.
3- Keeping in view the Day of Judgment before and after the performance of acts.
The real religion is, in which performance of the faith is not a problem at all.
Every faith other than the faith taught by God is blind and every religion which leads to saviours and gods other than GOD is false. Blind faith and false religions will lead people to the fire of hell.
Whosoever trusts in GOD must believe in faith because faith is a concern of the creatures with GOD. And concern is shown with the obedience of GOD and the most obedient is most concerned with GOD and the most concerned with GOD is a direct slave or a servant of GOD.
Obedience of the servant according to the commandments of GOD cause peace and blessing of the GOD. Because it’s not the servant who is mercy full but GOD who gave the commandments which cause mercy. And a servant can never be equal to the master.
Prayer or worship is essential to strengthen the faith and religions are ways of doing so. Religion is required by the faith because religion teaches how to establish faith through acts according to the commandments of GOD to be a perfect slave of GOD our Lord.
Faith in GOD is a feeling concerning the link with GOD.
And religion is a way to express it by following the commandments of GOD through different norms as demanded in the revealed books which different nations follow as a word of GOD our Lord. A real believer believes in all the teachings of the messengers of GOD and follows what is required through acts for salvation.
Life is blessed as a time of prayer
Earth is blessed as a house of prayer.
And all are equal as you see, every one have two eyes, two hands etc. And GOD is Mercy full to all and is not GOD of a certain nation but belongs to every one equally. And those who seek Mercy of GOD through acts of obedience of the GOD our Lord are the best among all.