How can there be a creation without a creator?

Question

There is no science without scientists. There is no architecture without architects. There is no design without designers. How can there be a universe without a God. Please give logical reasoning. Answering this question with another question is not acceptable. I want a real answer.

Izzy - Not studying gravity but creating gravity. My mom made gravy. Could there be gravy without cooks to make it or would we all have cold mashed potatoes waiting for the gravy to make itself?

I want a logical and reasonable answer. Those who believe in logic and reason should have no problem.

Who is to say that the Big Bang was not God's voice, per se?

ChooseReality - Is it not clear that the universe exists? How then does it exist? Do you also suppose that the Pyramids of Egypt were carved out of the Sand on their own accord? Would you suppose that Stonehenge is a natural phenomenon or do you think it was built? Did you read my question? I was looking for an answer. I am still looking for an answer. Can you give me your logical analysis by way of reason? Or is it easier to dismiss my question as invalid because you don't have a logical answer?

Why do so many of you answer this question with a question? I am looking for a logical and reasonable argument.

Izzy - "Things exist on there own" What does this mean exactly. Does it mean that there is no cause and effect as the laws of physics would imply. Everything Is because it Is and there need be no further explaination?

Gaia princess - I am looking for an answer not another question. Forgotting to put the question mark at the end of your sentence does not make it a statement.

My question is Not, "Where did God come from?" Does anyone here understand my question? All I want is a straight answer. Why can I not get an honest critical analysis from those who say they embrace logic and reason. I want a logical and reasonable answer.

Raven's Voice - I do not pose an argument. I pose a question. Do you have an answer? Where have I posed a circular argument?

CJunk - The "means of knowing" is logical extrapolation. Someone built my house. To think otherwise is not reasonable. Did the house you live in build itself?

Answer 1

Give that person a prize!!!!!!

God is the Great architect.

Answer 2

When discussing science vs. scientists and so on, you're discussing "creators" that are subject to causes and conditions to arise themselves. No scientist or architect has ever popped into being from "nothingness", however this creator "God" has been assumed to do so, otherwise someone or something would HAVE to have created such a "creator", but then such a "God" would NOT be so "perfect" as claimed to be.

Most people who juggle this question are stuck in dualistic thinking, linear time and fail to recognize the logic that NOTHING in our known universe arises without causes and conditions, so where would this "God" come from? Even any universal theories on the "Big Bang" admit that it arose from causes and conditions, and there is no such thing as "nothingness" because everything is made up of SOMETHING.

I invite you to explore the Buddhist logic on the illogical nature of what you're proposing, and look at it with an open mind. You don't have to be Buddhist to do it. Dump your concept of linear time (Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End) and toy with the possibility that there is no such creator being as is presented. Explore the concept that all things, even your thoughts, arise due to causes and conditions and so on... once you start seeing the logic of such ideas, you can start working backward towards this concept of whether there really is a creator god or not.

Hope this helps some. It's a huge topic and not much space to discuss it efficiently here. Most Tibetan Gelug monks spend YEARS debating all the goodies that go with this subject! LOL

Also, you might get a kick out of reading the book "The Quantum and the Lotus" by Matthieu Ricard and Trinh Xuan Thuan... it's a good book that discusses the scientific "stuff" right next to Buddhist philosophy and it just might be right up your alley.

_()_

Answer 3

In all our history unanswered questions have been answered with "God did it". He made rain and thunder a few thousand years ago. The list is endless.

Is it really that hard to believe that it's only a matter of time before there will be no more questions left to answer? It can take 100 years, it can take 10,000 years, but that day will come.

In our days, "God did it" is only used as an answer for things that go beyond our imagination. Just as those silly people did a few thousand years ago that couldn't understand what caused rain and thunder.

Someday archeologists will find our civilisation and laugh their teeth out about our silliness.

You do realize that your silly "oh we don't know how the universe was formed, or came to existence, so eh, see God did it!" is kinda weird, right? Because at the same time you claim that this same "God" always existed. So, your actual claim is: "there can't be anything without a creator, that's why I invent a creator who doesn't need a creator to exist, else it would be impossible".

I strongly hope that if you think a little harder you see the flaws in that claim.

Answer 4

The answer is this. Your argument is invalid.

You are assuming that the universe / world was "created."

You offer no support other than the earth's existence as evidence that it was created... This is circular reasoning.

Look at it this way:

If i say "the ground is wet, therefore it has to have rained" would you agree?

There are other ways the ground could have become wet. I made the assumption that it rained based only on the fact that the ground was wet. There are other ways for the ground to get wet, just as there are other ways the earth may have come into existence.

You obviously believe that this creator can come from nothing. If you were to describe the creator to me I'm sure i could find the same sort of evidences you find for what you call "creation" in this being. Namely order, intelligence, etc...

With that said, who created the creator that created creation! woah! say that 10 times fast.

The deeper we explore this argument the more we find it relies on circular reasoning. Without any solid evidence that the earth is indeed a "creation" there is no need to posit a "creator."

Answer 5

The word 'Creation' implies 'creator' all ready. But if 'creation' is to be understood as 'ALL that is in existence', then lets proceed.
There no doubt is some great unknown property of the universe that helped kick start every thing. Its religous people who claim they actually do KNOW what happened in the beginning of time without any means of knowing.
'Evolutionists' , 'Dawinists', agnostics,atheist etc admit they dont know. But use science to try and understand. So theories are developed, based on scientific facts, to help understand the 'unknowns'.
I dont know where everything came from. Most, if not all, atheist + evolutionist + dawinists will admit they dont know. Its religous people who claim to KNOW where it came from, when, and by whom etc. etc
Its not us demanding you believe, its the religions.
Maybe there is a God or gods or goddesses or some type or another. Maybe there isnt any. Observations of the universe show us that there is no need to infer 'outside' influence on its operations and structure. Maybe this is the matrix, but scientist will say, "cant see the matrix so there is no need to infer one'. Everything else is just speculation. God, Goddesses, dieties, ghosts, angels, demons, matrix, alien experiment, illusion etc etc, are nothing more than speculation about the known universe.
No one on earth has 'special' knowledge in relation to where these things come from. Thats what atheist are trying to tell the religous minded.
EDIT to your comment.
Howdy
I 'know' someone built my house. Actually a few people no doubt. I dont know how many. I get what you mean. However we still dont know who made the sand used in the cement, if there was someone or not.
I can understand the possibility that something or someone may have kick started everything. But the 'creation', if you will, that exists now has no signs of outside influence. Also the evolving nature of species rules out intelligent design. You could suggest some ultimate design that everything may be leading towards that will be perfect, but there is no evidence for this. Evolution doesnt show that every thing is getting better. As for the 'kick start', no one knows if there was one. It maybe that the universe/s have always existed. Fine, maybe there is some ultimate design that includes all this crappy design, but that is just speculation.Evolution has been accepted as a fact, by many religous also. Thats the reason it stays in schools, not because atheist are ruling the education of children. But because many christian leaders have acknowledged the facts. How evolution works is still unknow and is therefore called a theory. Evolution wipes out the ancient metaphysical views of how Mankind Got here. As for if there is a creator behind evolution, maybe... but no one knows. At least, no one can demonstrate that they know.
Paterns can appear in things to many many people. People see mary in the clouds, or animals in the clouds. Crucifixes in the stars, sequences in heads and tails coin flips. It is more probable that these things dont exist anywhere except in the observers mind. This doesnt mean that design or patterns is not present in some things. Like music for example. Where you can count the beats and see the mathematical pattern in many styles. Or ancient writing as opposed to ancient scribble. An intelligent signal from outerspace (Even if it is made by another nationality of humans) can be distiguished against the unintelligent 'design' of all the other noise. In the last example, many christians would have no problem calling the signals from an intelligent origin 'INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED' and the background noise 'UNINTELIGENT'. They would therefore be admitting that there is no evidence for inteligent design in the universe.
Of course there still may be a God, postualted, that cleverly designed a universe that appears universaly uninteligently designed. And many people will simply alter their 'God' to fit these facts. 'God' IS inteligently designed, the universe most probably is not.

PS. I like 'Raven's Voice' birthing answers. If humans can be born, why not the universe? Why does it have to be made like a human makes a house? Humans make houses out of what is all ready around them. If God made the universe did he/she/it make it? Or 'Birth' it? Or maybe the universe is waist product from when God was making heaven (A perfect universe). And we are just some virus he/she/it cant be bothered with. the same we cant be bothered with the goings on off the cockroaches in our Recently Built House.

I think 'Middle Man' has made the point quite elagantly. well, sort off

Answer 6

Well, so long as you think in these terms, you've happily found a circular argument.

Bully for you.

The fact of somethings existence doesn't mean that it was created by an outside force.

"Creation" implies certain things, like the thing being created being made from something other than the creator.

What about birthing things? Making something out of the substance of oneself?

Maybe THAT is how the universe came into being. By being birthed.

Answer 7

Dear lord, you guys post the most unoriginal questions imaginable. Seriously, this question has been asked sooooo many times in R & S...

Where did your god come from?

I am a deist. I can easily admit that I do not know how the creator came to be. This is a lot more honest than most Christians, who will claim that God has "always been." That statement is nothing more than an escape from thought.

Answer 8

Since life can't evolve from non-life, then how did the first life form come into existence?

Answer - it was CREATED! And God is the Creator!

Answer 9

If you want us to believe that god exists, it is up to you to prove it. Until you can prove that there is a god, I will not believe it. And no, the simple fact of our existance does not prove there is a god. That only proves that life exists.

Answer 10

so, thats like saying that there is no gravity without someone to study gravity. that makes no sense. things exist on their own, they dont always need an outside force to govern them.

Answer 11

How can there be God to create unless someone created God.