Tell me again why a purebred papillon cost at least twice as much as, say, a purebred champion APBT?

Question

You can't say that the price a breeder asks is the price of raising the puppy to the point that you get it. If that were the case, why on earth are the adult dogs cheaper?
Also, how would it cost more for standard shots and deworming and food and such for a toy breed than a rather much larger breed?
Find me a puppy that actually cost $1200 to raise to the point of placing, and that will be the day that I spend $1200 on a puppy.
And if the owner is indeed charging more for a puppy than was paid to raise that puppy, how are they losing money? Eh, riddle me that?
I'm not attacking, but both trying to prove a point or be proven wrong myself.
PS. Do you pay yourself for taking care of your dog? If you don't, then you can't honestly say that the difference is in the time and effort spent showing the parents and socializing the pups.

I ask because most people say purebreds cost far more than any other dog because of what it costs to produce the puppies, but almost everyone here has proven to me that it is simply a matter of supply and demand.

I hadn't realized that a dog is s'posed to be best of breed to be worthy of being bred, because I didn't know that a dog had to be THE BEST to be considered good. I don't think a breeder should be required to show the dogs in true competition to breed them, only pass them in the trials or whatever *in other words, have them proven a good embassador of the breed, but not necissarily give them warrant to charge you out the butt* because most of us simply want a pet that we can MAYBE flaunt in front of our friends, and not the entire AKC. What a dog wins doesn't matter, just adds to the price without fail
And if we spay/neuter all the non-champion dogs, soon enough we will have NO dogs for anyone who doesn't make a collective immediate family income in the six digits. Why don't we breed a beutiful pet quality purebred to another and make beutiful dogs for that average person who can't afford, nor do they want, a dog bred of "champions", just a pretty, nice puppy

Never was it meantioned that I want to breed... Also, don't you think I've been around to the shelters in the area? Does it matter that in rural Florida, there's no such thing as a small breed that's gonna be up for adoption *okay, so there are yorkies and poodles about, but I'm picky and I want not to settle for less than at least a pap mix* also, in my area, you'll be hard pressed to find even a purebred pit *any of the four verieties i had outlined for me in a previous thread* let alone something that I find attractive *pits can be nice, but i can be shallow, hush up, we all have our preffs* And to anyone saying that a breeder will lower their price for a contract to spay/neuter, find me one that doesn't have the contract either way. Really, give it a try, call around. Prove me wrong about the papillon breeders of florida and you win a dollar.

I feel that I effectively proved my point with the help of most of the people that answered. Everyone's saying that you're probably paying less for the puppy than the cost was to raise it, but then chihuahuas are cheaper than paps? Aren't they prone to the same pirthing problems?

But I needed to prove, if only to myself, that the people ranting that breeders aren't in it for the money and are losing money and not making a profit. It's not that I didn't understand the proffit is a desireable thing, it's that the general public is missled in beleiving that the price of a PB is not in any way related to supply and demand, and I'm not the only one that used that term, so I must not be all that crazy, right?

I have another threat long this same line that kinda points out *in answers* that PBs aren't allways the best. I think it's uberawesome that I've gotten someone to admit that PBs aren't bred for so much sound structure as appearance, maybe behavior.

Answer 1

Uhmm...what?

I'm a little confused by what you're actually asking (what does the Pit Bull have to do with it?), but I will try to answer as best I can.

1. I've never heard a responsible breeder claim that they base their price purely on how much they've spent raising a litter to 8 weeks.

2. The cost for shots and deworming a puppy would be pretty comparable regardless of the size of the puppy. They get the same amount of vaccine, and larger puppies get only slightly more wormer than smaller puppies.

3. "And if the owner is indeed charging more for a puppy than was paid to raise that puppy, how are they losing money? Eh, riddle me that?"

Ah, very smug. Consider how much it costs to campaign and finish championships on the parents of the puppy in order to prove them worthy of breeding. Consider how much it costs to feed high quality food to both parents and litter. Consider how much it costs to conduct all of the necessary genetic testing required on each parent prior to breeding.

I easily spend $10-$15K on my dogs every year, and those are only the ones that I actively show -- not my sled dogs, not my old guys, not my rescued dogs. This year I sold 4 puppies out of the 7 that I whelped. Even if I charged $1200 for them (which is way more than my actual price), and there were no breeding/whelping complications (which happen) would I be making money?

You do the math.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make with your PS, but you have to remember that showing dogs costs MONEY. Entries alone are $25-$30 per dog, per day. Then there's gas, hotel, meals, the $25K van I bought to transport the dogs because it has rear air and can fit 4 crates plus gear....etc. You don't just wait for the judge to show up in your backyard and give you a free ribbon. And in the end, you're doing it to prove that there's a reason to breed your dog -- because it's a good example of its breed, and not just because it's "papered".

I hope this clarifies things.

ADDED:
"Why don't we breed a beutiful pet quality purebred to another and make beutiful dogs for that average person who can't afford, nor do they want, a dog bred of "champions", just a pretty, nice puppy"

ME: If you want a purebred, you want it because it exhibits certain traits and qualities typical of its breed, and because you can predict how it will behave/grow/etc. So if you want a purebred, why wouldn't you want a good one? One that does exhibit these traits and qualities, and is predictable in behavior and growth?

Otherwise, adopt a shelter dog and save a life!

The people breeding "pet quality" have no idea of what their pedigrees hold, and place emphasis on the wrong things -- i.e. "beautiful blue eyes and a pretty mask" rather than "parents clear for eye disease". You breed a carelessly bred dog to another carelessly bred dog, and you begin to drift from the breed type and predictable traits that make the dog what it is. Not to mention, you begin producing genetic health problems due to sheer ignorance -- most BYBs don't know a damn thing about what's in their dogs' pedigrees.

Responsible breeders breed excellent quality pets. Would you rather have "beautiful" but has luxating patella and cataracts, or beautiful and healthy?

Unfortunately there's much more to it than simply making a "pretty, nice puppy" for the masses.

ADDED: For casey, below:

"Why do show breeders charge so much for pups with full registration and not for the same pup with limited registration."

ME: Ironically, the people who do this generally aren't the ones who show. Not sure where you got that information. I can tell you that anyone I know who does show (and I know many people, in many breeds), charges the exact same amount for any puppy they sell. All pet puppies are sold on spay/neuter contract, either with or without full registration.

"I think it's because they don't want people making money off there dogs unless they get paid for it."

ME: I think that some people may charge more for a fully registered puppy because it's their vague way of discouraging people from breeding ("I have to pay more just to breed? Nah, I'll stick with the Limited Registration.") but, again, it's not something I see responsible breeders do. I see BYBs and Puppy Millers do it and -- in that case -- I think you're probably right.

"But stop saying you don't breed for profit. It may not be the only reason you breed but if you didn' t want money too than why charge outrageous prices for the pups."

ME: Most responsible breeders I know don't charge "outrageous" prices. They ask for far less than the pet stores, and are generally in line with each other. Sure, they may be a couple hundred more than Joe BYB with his two Puppy Machines, but then has Joe done any genetic testing on his dogs? Spent the time and money proving them worthy of breeding?

No. He "let nature take its course" and let Momma whelp out in her dog house while he fed her Ol' Roy. So I understand the disparity.

Answer 2

Tell me again why a purebred papillon cost at least twice as much as, say, a purebred champion APBT?
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Because it depends on the popularity of a dog, and the rarity. If it's popular, it could be expensive. If there's not alot of them, they could be expensive.
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You can't say that the price a breeder asks is the price of raising the puppy to the point that you get it. If that were the case, why on earth are the adult dogs cheaper?
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Because they're older and not alot of people are interested in adopting older dogs.
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Also, how would it cost more for standard shots and deworming and food and such for a toy breed than a rather much larger breed?
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I'm not sure where you see this happening, but toys and food for small dogs are actually cheaper here. I would guess that it may take more maintenance because large dogs are heartier than small ones.
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And if the owner is indeed charging more for a puppy than was paid to raise that puppy, how are they losing money? Eh, riddle me that?
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Because most people pay for the first shots, and other medical treatment of a puppy, and to take care of the mother. If they make any money it's very little.
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Answer 3

The price of a puppy starts with the stud fee ($) and ends when the new owners take over responsibility. Small breeds usually only have 1 to 4 pups per litter depending on the breed. But the expenses are the same during pregnancy. The mom has to go to the vet before and after breeding ($). Larger breeds can easily have over a dozen pups in one litter. If the delivery is uneventful, fantastic, but if for some reason things don't go as well as hoped for, there's another vet visit ($). Then when the pups are old enough they get to start getting vaccinated ($). If mom has any problems after the delivery there is another vet visit ($). If any of the pups have any type of problem there is another vet visit ($). Most breeders don't keep track of which dog (puppy) cost them money, instead they keep track of how much the litter has cost. Then you have the breeds that have to have their tails docked. Yes, some people oppose it, but if it is a reputive breeder that you are getting the pup from, you don't have a choice, if it is a standard for that breed it is done ($). If for some reason one of the pups has to be put to sleep instead of suffering, there is another expense ($).
Then you have the reputation of the breed. Pit Bulls are getting a bad rap because of some bad owners, so people are avoiding that breed. While in reality that breed can be just as loving and loyal as any other breed. People ask for what they think they can get, they get it so they are happy. If people weren't willing to pay $1600 for a puppy then the population would go down as well as the price.
If you don't want to pay that much for a puppy, try a rescue for a particular breed in your area, or a shelter.

Answer 4

Well, he's not show-quality. He could be purebred from some pet-quality stock, or he could be mostly papillon mixed with something to make him heavier. (His head is a bit 'off' for the breed to, much makes me think maybe he might be mostly papillon but has some other breed mixed in. Maybe pomeranian? I don't really know what the other breed would be.) With the dog not being registered, it's impossible to tell whether it's purebred or not. But you love him, so that's what matters.

Answer 5

With the two specific breeds you mention, it's a simple matter of litter size that would be a difference in the pricing. Pits have very large litters, with 13 or 14 pups fairly common. Paps have 4 or less pups at a time.

Why are adults cheaper? Why is a used car cheaper? It runs, doesn't it? But, like a used car, an adult dog has been pre-owned and may have problems that need addressing by the new owners. It also has a shorter life-span.

As for the price...I recently added up the costs of attaining titles on ONE of my dogs for someone on a Malamute board. It was over $10,000 for this male, for the hotel fees, equipment, entry fees, medical checks and so on. Yes, he has seven titles and all health clearances, but this was money spent on ONE dog.

To date, this male has sired 5 litters of pups. We used one of our own females with him, studded him out the other times. Once, we got a pup back. The other three litters we charged $1,000 for stud fees. Out of the litter we had, there were five pups. We kept one. The other four were sold for $1,000.

So we have gotten, in cash, $7,000 back from the sale of pups and stud fees. Pretty good investment on the $10,000+, hey???

And I don't even count the costs we spent on the female of our own we used!

And no, I didn't include normal vaccinations and food in the $10,000.

EDITED TO SAY:

Have you checked Papillon Rescue? http://www.papillonclub.org/rescue/availdogs.html

And I don't know if these are the breeders you contacted, but here is the National Pap Club Breeder's Directory:
http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm

Answer 6

In my opinion, the biggest reason for cost differences lies in the fact that if a show quality Papillon costs YOU $1200, the breeder will pay the same that to purchase one. Stud fees are higher as well. Additionally, the less popular breeds have to charge more because their pups are not as sought after than the popular breeds. They tend to breed less frequently (low demand) and therefore must spread their costs over fewer offspring. Less popular breeds are also closely protected by highly responsible breeders from being exploited by people looking for a quick buck.

Much of what a pup is worth may be related to the "going rate" for a certain breed. I know that my breed sells for $1000+. Breeders often produce only 1 litter every other year - tops. That barely covers the costs of doing what needs to be done to produce top quality pups (which has already been eloquently covered here in other posts). Others that sell for much less have to either increase production to cover costs or assume the loss (and a lot of breeders do assume big losses every year because they won't exploit their dogs by over-breeding them).

It is up to every dog buyer to decide what is most important to them. For me, I buy show dogs from quality breeders that show their dogs, test them for defects known in my breed and are not running a high volume operation - they breed for quality, not quantity. That means that I do pay more for the dogs I buy. I could buy cheaper show dogs - but I choose not to.

That said, when I am looking for strictly a pet/performance dog I always consider rescues or shelters first. The dogs cost much less and I save a life. I own just as many rescue dogs as show dogs - a fact that I am very proud of. For every puppy I have produced, I have saved 5-10 lives of shelter dogs through my rescue activites.

My advice? If the cost of purebred dogs is too much for a pet - get a rescue dog. If you are considering breeding as a hobby/career/pasttime - you would do well to buy the best you can, otherwise you are just breeding trouble.

Answer 7

-Popularity
-AKC registration- APBT aren't AKC yet, so they are worth less because you can't put them in the big shows.
-Rarity
-Breeding. APBT can put out 6 pups or more per litter. Most Papillons have one pup per litter, or at most, 2. This makes it harder to breed them, and as toy dogs, you have less of a window of breeding - you have to wait longer to start, and you have to stop sooner. Most breeding Paps only have 1-3 litters in a lifetime. So while the average Pap puts out 1-6 pups in her lifetime, the average APBT can put out, say, up to 18 pups (three litters x 6 pups per litter) or more! That hikes up the price because it takes so long to actually get a puppy.
-Breeding / Showing rights: If you buy a pup that you want to breed and/or show, you'll have to pay for it, because you'll be making money off that dog in turn, and the breeder wants a cut of it. It might not be fair, but that's how it works. If you buy a show-dog as a companion and ask that it be pet-quality, you will have to sign a contract and prove that you neuter it at 6 months of age, and you will not be allowed to ever breed or show the dog. This will substantially lower the purchase price.

Oh, and there are millions of dogs in the US, many purebred, who are available at very reasonable prices: its called shelter dogs, and rich and poor alike should be paying more attention to them and less attention to high-cost show dogs anyway.

Edit: I don't live in Florida, but my last pap was bought from show lines, and the breeder DID lower our price in return for the neuter contract, so maybe not all breeders do, but some will.

Answer 8

I think you have a great point. Why do show breeders charge so much for pups with full registration and not for the same pup with limited registration. I think it's because they don't want people making money off there dogs unless they get paid for it. I am not saying they are not entitled to it because they spend a lot of time and effort to make there dogs what they are, it is like a full time job. But stop saying you don't breed for profit. It may not be the only reason you breed but if you didn' t want money too than why charge outrageous prices for the pups. Just go ahead and say its your job and that's how you get your paycheck. We already know but they think they are fooling everyone . The only breeders I know of that don't make much of a profit are Bulldog breeders cause they are born by Csection and there are only a few in each litter. That is if they don't charge 4,000 for a pup.

Answer 9

Reputable breeders have a right to put a price in the research they did to insure that both the sire and the dam are healthy, conform to the breed standard and that their lineages are sound in the same respect. Reputable breeders have a right to put a price on the fact that they will support their puppies and their puppy people for the life of the dog.
Non reputable breeders do not have this right.
Consumers have the right to pay or not to pay the breeder's asking price. You do cite some good lines that a consumer can use to negotiate an agreeable cost for a puppy. There's nothing wrong with haggling.

Answer 10

You have to figure in all the time someone is spending raising quality pups too. Good breeders are near the pups day and night tending to every need, and beginning their potty training. Also consider how high the demand is for the breed. You don't pay yourself for raising a pup because the reason you got the pup in the first place is because you wanted to raise the pup. When you get a puppy you have the opportunity to train it young and mold it into the type of dog you want it to be as an adult.

Answer 11

Alot of the pricing depends on the relative 'rarity' of the dog, the type of breed it is (toys are traditionally more expensive than larger breeds), and what people will pay for them. Unfortunately, Labs, Pits, Goldens, etc are popular, and you can find them in the paper for cheap. Unless someone is looking for something in particular, they aren't going to pay alot for a dog like that. I understand your confusion though. I have a friend who took out a loan for $1600 to buy a mutt from a petstore. So, if you find the right people, you can charge whatever you want. Sadly though, in general circles, certain breeds will never be worth what their pedigree should be.