Does anyone do agility with their dog? If so, I have some questions!?

Question

I am in a beginner class and my instructor is big on clicker training which I hate. My dog is wonderful in obedience and she learned everything with simple praise. She says that I shouldn't give the "down" command when my dog jumps on the table. Rather, I should wait until she goes down on her own (which could take forever!) and then "Click". Aren't you allowed to say "Down" during competitive agility? She said that it's easier if the dog learns to automatically go down on the table and it saves time if she's way ahead of me. I think she'll learn to automatically go down no matter how I train her. My dog will only walk on the dog walk and teeter totter if I lay out treats ahead of her. I did this to encourage her at first. She was scared. Now, she'll only move if the treats are layed out. She learned to manipulalte me. She's preety clever! How do I get her to move without treats? I also want to know how to get my dog to move fast. She's a young Sheltie (cont'd)

and she's preety fast but not as fast as she can be. How do people train their dogs to be fast? As her confidence builds and she gets close to being able to compete, will she naturally get faster? Do super fast dogs (like the ones on the t.v. at the agility nationals) start agility super fast or do they just get faster? My last question is in regards to weave poles? What is the best way to train a dog to weave and weave quickly? My instructor puts the poles down and has the dogs walk through the middle which my dog does with no problem. It's too easy for her. I want to teach my dog to weave by myself because she's not going to show us for a while. Also, what do you think of clicker training??????

Answer 1

Having her automatically down when she hist the table without a command will make for a faster down (seconds count in agility). The only problem with this is if you want to compete in AKC trials, where the dog may have to SIT on the table. Had this happen to me, my dogs are trained to AAC (Agility Association of Canada) rules and when we went to our first AKC trial the judge required a sit on the table. My poor dog was SO confused because we ALWAYS down on the table.

Anyhoo, if the league you want to compete in only requires a down, then the auto down will pay off. I still use it, I just teach my dogs that if I say sit I want them to pop up into a sit and hold it.

Don't worry about speed at this point, it will come as the dog becomes more confident and is having more fun. Accuracy is more important at this stage.

On the teeter, start laying the treats farther apart and farther from the start.

I already explained how I taught the weaves to my best weaver, she is fast and accurate.

I don't do "pure" clicker training (just wait for the dog to do something) but I do find it useful to specifically point out something I want the dog to do again.

Answer 2

In all competitive agility, you are allowed to scream and yell and make as much noise to your dog as you D*** well please- don't let this woman tell you how to train your dog if you know better. I'm not a big fan of clicker training in general, but it's definitely not a good match for agility. Every agility course is different, your dog will never know what to do without words! Your dog needs to learn instructions - hurdle, tunnel, slow, run, up, down, stay, etc. - so that she knows what to do for each obstacle in each race.

If I were you, I'd think about finding another class- this instructor doesn't sound like she knows what she's doing.

As for fixing the teeter problem, you actually gave yourself a solution in the way you did this. Next time you lay out the treats, skip the one closest to her. After that, skip the next one closest to her, so that gradually, the only treat left will be on the very far end of the teeter. Then, when she'll go the length of the teeter and eat the last treat, move to holding the treat in your hand at the other side of the teeter and make her come to you for it. Eventually, she'll get so good at it and be moving so fast she'll run off and move to the next event without needing the treat.

She will gain speed in time, but you should also remember that border collies, which usually do agility, are naturally very fast and agile, and it's not likely she'll ever get that good- there's a reason borders win almost every competition! But she will get faster as she learns the commands and learns what she's doing.

Weave poles are easiest to teach with UPRIGHT poles (again, I don't like this instructor of yours) spread wide apart. Set up 3 or 4 poles, with plenty of extra space between them. Either weave a treat, lead her on a leash, or have her follow you as you weave between them, giving her a command so she knows what she's learning. Then, go a little faster. Then add more poles. Then go faster. Then push them closer together. Then go faster. And so on, until she can master the full set of tightly spaces poles. This is one of the hardest things to master, so be patient, she will get it. Good luck!

Answer 3

Well, if you don't like clicker training so much, why did you take a class with an instructor who taught based on this method? You should really find a new instructor, because you won't like the class and won't get what you should from it as a result.

As far as how she's telling you to train for the table down, you can give your dog verbal commands, tho it's always good for your dog to know hand signals as well.

I personally use clicker training and I will never train another dog without it. The results are far quicker than I could do without it. We use it in my Obedience Competition classes. My 5 month Border Collie puppy learned to touch a target on command in just 10 minutes... would have took much longer to get the idea to her without the use of a clicker. But to each their own. Not all training methods are perfect for everyone.

Answer 4

Clickers can be a very useful tool. I think you could possibly implement these on the cat walks your dog is having trouble with. Instead of treats, click, she'll still know she's going to get a treat. You might need to wean her onto to it gradually. For example, put your treats out, right before she gets to them, click. Do this a few times, then take out every other treat, but still click in that spot. After you are only clicking, give her a big jackpot of treats at the end. Finally phase out all the clicks as well. The same as you did the treats. Then only click at the end, and give a big jackpot. Finally phase this out to praise only. This may also help her speed up on those as well.

As far as telling your dog to down on the tables, I see nothing wrong with it. All of my dogs do auto sits, or downs at certain times, and I started them out the same way. They eventually learn that "Hey when this happens, I have to this" and do it on their own.

As far as speed, once your dog gets good at something, you can encourage them to do it faster. Only praise when the dog goes a bit faster.

For weave poles you can get training poles that come with guide wires.

If you aren't happy with your instructor I would find another one. If you're stressed out, your dog is going to pick up on that, and can also affect performance. There is more than one way to train a dog, and you've gotta find the way that works for you and your dog. The only requirement is that it should be positive. Training goes much faster if both the person and the dog are having fun doing it. I think trainers also need to be able to adapt methods to fit the situation, a good trainer will.

Answer 5

I do agility with an instructor who has won national agility titles with 9 of her dogs so she knows her stuff.

First off, nothing wrong with using clickers for some behaviors. Clickers are great tools if you learn now to use them well.... but sometimes it can be like using a surgeon's scalpel to spread butter on your toast when a butter knife will do... in other words, clickers are great for shaping complicated behaviors and other precision behavior marking, but if you don't need that, why use it? I personally use it for some training and not for others.

In general it sounds like you are trying to move way too fast... you have to have patience and make sure your dog builds a solid foundation first before trying to move ahead in agility otherwise your dog will never gain the speed and confidence on the equipment that you seem to be itching for.

Ever heard that if you figure out a problem yourself instead of having someone tell you the solution, you will retain that learning much better/longer? That is the same reason your instructor was your dog to 'figure out' the desired behavior on her own instead of your commanding her. If she doesn't build up the DRIVE to push on and correctly do each piece of equipment, you will never gain the speed that you ultimately want from her because she will always be 'waiting' for you to command her to each piece of equipment and therefore always be slow.

The nationally titled agility dogs see the equipment and are practically busting out of their collars in anticipation for a run. It's easier to rein in a dog with extra enthusiasm and simply focus that enthusiasm than it is to try and push for more speed and enthusiasm for a dog that is not confident or having fun on the equipment on it's own. My instructor's top dog gets mad at her (barks) if she is too slow giving send offs... that's how driven and good she is.

That is why your instructor is teaching you this way... if you're such a pro, then why are you taking a beginner class? If you simply hate the clicker portion, then just find someone who doesn't use clicker, but I guarantee you, that if you go to a good agility instructor (anyone that has actually nationally titled their dogs) they will still move your dog through the training in this same manner, that is setting a confident foundation on the equipment and building up her drive for it naturally. You can't rush that otherwise you'll never achieve the results you want.

Answer 6

That is the problem with the clicker method, you stand around until the dog decides to do what you want it to do. What is so wrong about just SHOWING the dog what you want? Another problem with this method is that clicker people are not open to trying any other methods You don't need a clicker to mark/reward behavior. They are stupid annoying gadgets and totally uneccessary. I agree that the default behavior on the table is best to be a down.

They way to get her off treats is to slowly wean her off them, you can start by keeping them in your hand instead of laying them out. I do think you are in too much of a hurry though. It usually takes at least a year to get good enough to compete. It would not be fair to your dog to take her in a trial until she is confident.

She will speed up as she gains confidence. Take your time!!! Speed will come, make sure she is having fun, that is most important.

"My instructor puts the poles down and has the dogs walk through the middle which my dog does with no problem. It's too easy for her. I want to teach my dog to weave by myself because she's not going to show us for a while."

That is a common way to teach weaves, don't worry it will get much harder. Weaves are generally the hardest for dogs to learn. Again, TAKE YOUR TIME AND HAVE FUN, YOU ARE IN TOO MUCH OF A RUSH! The road to the agilty ring is just as fun as trialing, make sure you and your dog enjoy it.

Why don't you think about buying/making your own weaves, then you could work on it at home.

Answer 7

I dont know about rules on saying down, but use hand gestures. Some clicker training is good, others seems ridiculus to me. I would push your dog down and say down with some slight hand gesture. Dogs are pretty good at reading body language, so she may associate that cue with going down. Everytime she is on that table, make her lay down right away, and she should start to associate that table with lying down. Our dog has a chair that he will always lie down by because we sit there everynight- and then he can get petted. He does it before we are even there in hopes to speed up the process.
As for the treats- gradually decrease them. Lay two out (one in middle and then one at the end) and switch to just one at the end, and then make her go over it. Give her a treat after she goes over it- not during for the last step.
In dog agility, you need to be the dominant one of the pair- don't let her push you around (to get more treats or whatever).
As for speed- that will come with training and time.
Also, you said that she tends to be way ahead of you- to get her faster, you would probably need to keep up and ahead of her.

Answer 8

The only thing I will add to this discussion is that if you are not happy with the dog you are competing with now, get another dog. I know it sounds rough, but, it is true. I also know that I cannot tell you that your current dog will not improve with more time and training, but neither can you tell me that it will. WHEN IT COMES TO WORKING DOGS DEPEND ON WHAT YOU SEE NOT ON WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE. 4 years ago I had a dog that was great in all aspects of my dog sport, except jumping the 9 foot wall. No matter how hard we tried he could not do it. We wasted months trying and finally gave up and I replaced him with another dog. Nothing wrong with the first dog, it's just that he could not do the work I wanted him to.

Answer 9

Don't use clicker training, but know people who have used it and swear by it. Might give it a go sometime.

You should search for a trainer who trains methods you agree with. It's just a waste of your money if you don't.