Breeding only to better the breed? Can it supply the demand for puppies?

Question

I read lots of statements on here regarding only breeding to better the breed. I understand wanting to improve the breed, but only breeding in order to do that? Just how many breeders are out there that do it only to better the breed and can they keep up with the demand for puppies each year by the public?

Also, I know myself could care less about the sire or dam winning BIS at Westminster or Krufts or even the local dog show. So is showing the dog really that important of a thing to obtain only a pet? I would think the answer to that question would be no to the general public.

Making sure the pup is healthy is one thing, so certs are a good thing there, but I do not think that dogs need to prove themselves in the ring in order to be bred, only that they are healthy and reasonably free of genetic issues.

Am I alone in this?

Bri, first of all, as I have said before, there is no real overpopulation problem. It's been hyped up by the ARs. The figures that you see are for all euthanasias in shelters. This includes owner requests, dogs that are too sick, dogs too old and just unadoptable for whatever reason. With the figures that you see, there is nothing to show that.

Second, if no one was to breed, then you lose the bloodlines that all the reputable breeders worked so hard to get. This includes, non-show dogs that are bred. There are dogs that aren't shown that are just as healthy as their shown counterparts.

Third, if there were truly this overpopulation problem, there would be far more puppies then adults in shelters now and places such as North Shore Animal League wouldn't be importing them in from other countries (which can cause other health issues).

canteringkid, I agree with making sure you have homes lined up.

JR, I sure have and there is a total of 9 dogs there right now, all adults and one senior dog. No puppies what so ever.

that's not overpopulation, it's owner retention problems.

Stalker, you sound like an elitist breeder. No pet quality dogs should be bred at all? Then I would never have a dog as that's all I want. As I said, I could care less about BIS awards, it means nothing to me. All I want is a dog and as long as a pet quality breeder does the health checks and gets certs, they are who I will go too.

You also seem very jaded and bitter.

Stalkers, I suggest you take your own advice and open up your eyes as well.

If NSAL was truly overpopulated, then they would have no room in order to import dogs.

bladedogs, no need to send me the videos, I have seen them and it doesn't change my mind at all. I also worked in a SPCA a few years ago, I worked as a kennel tech. I know how dogs are euthanized and all the different ways that it's done.

Stalker said:

"What??? Are you really that blind???? 99% of the dogs who are killed are adoptable dogs! Don't make stuff up to fit the statistics that you don't like. Seriously, to discount the kill rate in shelters is naive and stupid."

Isn't this just what the ARs do as well and just what I described? Please, show me a non-biased report that says 99% of the animals euthanized are adoptable. Sounds like something off an animal rights site to me.

Are you truly that naive that you can't even see that there would be other dogs euthanized?

Stalker, I want real answers, but if I find something that I find to be questionable, I will refute it.

Where did I call you a name? Because I said something about you being naive? Excuse me, but didn't you call me naive first?

I also recall saying you sound and seem like. I never recall as you can go back and read my comments as well as I can that I called you anything other then naive, but hey you asked me if I was really that blind 8-).

Learn what? What you tell me? I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on all accounts. It's my right to do so. If no one disagreed in this world, would really actually get anywhere?

Thank you M J! You said some stuff that I would have liked to say regarding the amount of PBs that come from show breeders and the like.

It seems you and I are on the same page in regards to many things.

Stalkers, that's my point. Just because someone doesn't show, it does not mean that they aren't breeding responsibly. That was my point from the beginning.

As long as health checks are done to certify that as far as a vet is concerned the animal is free from genetic issues and the temperments are where they should be, then does a dog really need to win a show to be bred?

Does not the above show responsibility?

M J, you sound as though you could possibly be on a yahoo group that I frequent every day. If not, I think you would be a great addition as you are up on a lot of legislative issues.

The group is Pet-Law.

sjlawson, it's not that at all.

I am looking for opinions and such, but this site exists not only to help the asker, but also those that maybe just read the questions and never ask a question.

If all they get is one side of the story, then they will never be truly informed.

There's nothing sad about making sure there is another side to see.

"I am. I don't get on there much these last few months, I am spending too much time here trying to enlighten people. Most are too far gone already! LOL!"

Sadly, that seems to be the case.

Bladedogsrule, maybe I was one of the ones put behind bars? That's a funny one! Only time I have ever had trouble with the law is with a couple speeding tickets, other then that I am clean. Hell, I don't even smoke and the only alcohol I drink is a wine cooler or two around christmas time.

Just because I worked in a shelter, it doesn't mean I am going to change my mind, if anything, it furthered my standing as it is today.

One of the things that the SPCA I worked at loved to do, was not to adopt out to a family with children unless they were over 16. Sometimes, not even then. These were families that would have made wonderful owners and the dogs they were looking at were as nice as can be. They maybe adopted out 2 or 3 dogs a week, but hundreds of people were coming in that were potential buyers (adopters). There's something wrong with that!

I also find it distasteful that you label me an abuser just because I disagree with you. My dogs are healthy, happy and I am not a breeder!

Answer 1

Yeah, people rant and rave about it but they never stop and think where they would get their PB dogs. Show breeders have, like, 5% of all registered puppies. If there were no non-show breeders having litters, most wouldn't be able to get a PB puppy.

" There are dogs that aren't shown that are just as healthy as their shown counterparts"

If only champion dogs are allowed to breed it would narrow the gene pool considerably, making for LESS healthy dogs, especailly in the rarer breeds. I see nothing wrong with someone breeding healthy pets, as long as they do it right.

The problem is that the people ranting have no knowledge of genetics and have completely bought into the 'overpopulation' propaganda. It is true that some shelters have to have dogs shipped in from elsewhere because they don't have ENOUGH adoptable dogs. In many places it is hard to find a small lap dog from a shelter.

Furthermore, only 8% (country wide) of the shelter dogs are PB. If it weren't for all the illbred mutts out there, we wouldn't HAVE a problem at all. But people don't get so upset by the people who are too stupid or lazy to manage their animals and allow them to get pregnant by the neighbors Lab. Instead, they just blame the PB breeders.

When they stop the BYB's, people WILL get their PB puppies from someplace. We can see, from the MSN mess in LA county, what happens. They end up buying a sickly, smuggled puppy from a country with NO abuse/neglect laws. Make breeding next to impossible and then wonder why they are having problems with smuggled Mexican puppies. Well, DUH!!!
Better a BYB that probably loves her dogs than from someone who is likely running a puppy mill in Mexico.


"It seems you and I are on the same page in regards to many things"

So it seems! A couple realistic people in a crowd of AR lites!

What is sad is that people will keep believing the AR propaganda and supporting anti-dog laws until our loved dogs are all legislated out of existence.


St Lady - " You may get one or two from a litter of ten"

I don't know ANY show breeder who can only get one show quality pup from a litter of ten! I can usually expect 3-4 finishable dogs out of a litter of 5-6. Not that I care if they go to show homes, I only care if they go to a good home.


"you sound as though you could possibly be on a yahoo group that I frequent every day"

I am. I don't get on there much these last few months, I am spending too much time here trying to enlighten people. Most are too far gone already! LOL!


tyke - "the population shouldn't be TRUSTED w/ a fing HOUSPLANT"

LMAO! Gitem, is that YOU??? *TYKE*? PLEASE!!! You are NO tyke!


2crazypups - "I find that so called "responsible" breeders seem to.....follow a particular creed blindly and ignore any other opinions"

Yes, the divide and conquer method seems to be working very well for the AR's. Turn all the breeders against each other and shut them down with legislation, one by one.

And you are right, finding a smallish lap dog type is next to impossible in some areas. It's mostly PB or Lab mixes.



Nannok - "the SPCA I worked at loved to do, was not to adopt out to a family with children unless they were over 16"

Yup, and other reasons they PTS, instead of adopt out are: you bred a LITTER? (GASP!), you are going to HUNT with it? (GASP!), it will be an OUTSIDE dog? (GASP!), you are NOT home 24/7? (GASP!). Seriously, a woman who writes a pet care column and works out of her home was turned down because she wasn't HOME ENOUGH!!! Others have been turned down because they WORK! On the other hand, they will turn you down if you don't have enough money! WHY do people continue to think they really want to adopt out dogs???

Answer 2

I don't know where you live but every shelter in my area here is full to overflowing. They euthanize after 3-4 days, but are allowed to go up to 2 weeks if they aren't full. The dogs they don't kill by injection are sent to a lab about 50 miles away that experiments on the dogs. I speak from experience when I say there is a horrible overpopulation problem. For every human born in the USA there are 2-3 dogs born.
As you know the reason to show dogs and better the breed is ideally to breed out the problems within that breed. Labs have CHD and Epilepsy so we breed them to get rid of this and we breed them to have sound movement and type. You should want these attributes in any dog including a pet. Go to Missouri and look at all the dogs kept in horrendous conditions and ask if we don't have a problem. Let me send you videos of how shelters that don't use injection kill the dogs. Let me send you pictures of these so called "breeders" and see if you don't change your mind. I can understand where you are coming from but as a person on the inside, it's sick.
Edit: Then obviously you aren't looking for information, simply trying to force your opinion on others and angry they don't agree. Too bad for the dogs there area so many more like you.
Edit:2.0 It's probably closer to 85% of the dogs killed are adoptable. You say you worked with shelters? Then you should know this already. Had you actually worked with them you would have a heart and not be trying to sentence innocent individuals to death. Maybe you were one of the abusers we put behind bars?

Answer 3

Excellent with the Dachshund! I have 2, have had 4 at one time and have fostered for a Dachshund Rescue. I have some mutts, a big old Chocolate Labrador and an American Pit Bull Terrier. What advice I would give anyone considering the bully breed is pretty simple: 1) Do your homework. Research the breed. Thoroughly. 2) If you are a couch potato, forget it. 3) You must have a dominant, assertive nature, otherwise this breed will walk all over you 4) Know this breed has a bad reputation due to ignorance and be prepared to encounter people who will hate you and your dog. 5) Get ready for serious training. Exercising is a MUST. You cannot over exercise an APBT. 6) Reinforce your training EVERY day. 7) Socialize your dog from the beginning. People, children, other dogs and animals. 8) Teach your dog NO TEETH ON HUMAN FLESH immediately. They are big mouthers and their 'nibbling/biting' hurts like hell. Teach them never to touch flesh with their mouths. 9) Ignore media hype and make your dog a good example of what this breed is really all about.

Answer 4

When we say we are trying to better the breed it doesn't mean just showing it in the ring.

What makes me different from a back yard breeder is that I will only breed the best quality of dogs, closest in conformation to akc standards.
Any backyard breeder will breed sick or genetically unstable dogs. They have hip problems?? They don't care, breed it. Then the person buying the puppy goes through so much heartache in a few years when the dog they bought can't walk anymore.
Bettering the breed means I have an understanding of the breed and what it should look like and what its temperament should be. If I have a dog that does have a health issue, it gets spayed/neutered and placed as a pet. I try to better the breed by trying to overcome some problems that may be standard to the breed. Good breeders understand their purebreds and I know I would only sell puppies of the highest quality. It makes me sick just knowing how many people have had to put down their dogs because of genetic problems that could have been completely avoided.

If buyers demand high quality dogs then there would be more breeders trying to breed high quality dogs. I can sell one of my dogs for 1000 bucks, but as long as there are buyers willing to pay 200 bucks for a puppy from a puppymill or crappy breeder then they will continue to abuse and breed their substandard dogs.

I won't sell a puppy that is 'reasonably free' of genetic issues, I guarantee it to be free of genetic issues.

Answer 5

No, you are not and it's very reasonable to think like this. There are plenty of people who do nothing more than to breed for pet quality and there's even a registration service for pet quality breeding.

I think that the reason people push the "showing" thing so much is that lots of people are doing back yard breeding, without doing health clearances or temperment testing and they are only adding to the population problem. These folks are uneducated in breeding, and most of them think they're going to make a fast buck. They don't really do it for the "love of the breed".

Overall, as long as those who breed without showing are doing all the proper health checks, assuring that the breed standard is at least maintained, ensure random breeding won't take place with the litters they produce by requiring a limited registration in most cases, and are breeding with the proper ethics (things like being a life time of support for anyone who takes a puppy from their litters and having the puppies placed before ever breeding), then I see nothing wrong with breeding for pet quality.

But unfortunately, there aren't many who would go to this level of commitment in breeding and is why there is such a push to let the professionals who show handle it instead.

Answer 6

I'm going to deal with the original question - can it supply the demand for puppies?

Probably not. But I don't think that's a bad thing. Lets face it, most of the people who buy dogs SHOUDN'T. There are plenty of people who buy a puppy on impulse, or because they want a child substitue, or babysitter for their kids, or a toy. The problem is not so much overpopulation but ingnorant, ill-planned, impulse buying. People who "have to have a (insert breed here) NOW". People who buy a puppy 'cause it's cute and it ends up living in the back yard because it didn't train itself to behave in the house (or it's too big, or it smells or whatever).

I don't belive there's a overpopulation problem either, many shelters are IMPORTING dogs from foreign countries. But maybe if there was a SHORTAGE and you could only get puppies from caring breeders who had the breed's and the puppies intrest foremost in their minds, then people would value their dogs more.

Answer 7

That's a great question. I find that so called "responsible" breeders seem to mainly be elitist, arrogant individuals who follow a particular creed blindly and ignore any other opinions. Hard core animal rights activists are in the same boat as the elitist breeders. My background is more horses than dogs, but I can tell you that "responsible" horse breeders, who breed only for a particular confirmation, color, and artificial man-made specifications have practically destroyed the American quarter horse. Horse show folks, judges, and the like have facilitated this by becoming obsessed with these artificial standards. The dog world seems to be populated with the same basic individuals. Like it or not, humans tend to screw up everything we touch to some degree, so I don't believe that the so called responsible breeders for the most part are actually helping dogs. Some folks on this forum are obsessed with AKC standards, confirmation, and other things that mean absolutely nothing to maintaining the health of the breed. I think there is room for breeders, who care about healthy genetics, to work with responsible pet stores (gasp, what a concept) to supply good quality puppies to the public who will otherwise resort to getting their puppies from unreliable sources. I've seen everyone keep blasting pet stores and puppy mills, but I think the only logical way to solve this problem is to stop being so close minded to new concepts. No matter what animal right activists and arragant breeders think, this demand will NOT GO AWAY, EVER. The most important thing to do is to ensure that all dogs sold through these outlets are spayed or neutered, and a good way to get that done is to include this in the price of the animal when purchased. Instead of taking extremest views we should be working out a more logical solution to meeting the demand for companion animals without facilitating the abandonment and sufferering of animals owned by irresponsible individuals. It can be done, but not to the satisfaction of everyone.

One last comment: When our beagle recently died of cancer (she was a pound puppy) we went to four different animal shelters and found that about 60% of the available dogs for adoption were pit bulls, or pit bull mixes. We observed several people commenting about this, and leaving without being able to find an animal they were comfortable with adopting. Adopting an animal should always be your first option, but there is more demand than there is a supply for adoptable animals. Unfortunately, many animals in shelters and in rescue organizations are older dogs with health or behavior problems, and when you take them out of the mix, you are looking at a relatively small population of adoptable animals and limited choices when doing so.

Anyway, I think a rambled on a bit, but there has to be voices on this forum other than the elitist breeder or the unrealistically optimistic AR folks.

Answer 8

Well, if there is no over population problem those dogs at the shelter I used to work at were damn good actors!!!!!! I sure hope you alone in this. Yes, if people bred just to improve the breed there would still be plenty of pet quality pups to go around. Most breeding's don't produce show quality litters. You may get one or two from a litter of ten. The breeders keep or sell show quality to other breeders or Show Enthusiasts.

Answer 9

I have bred dogs to get puppies. I have never shown any of my dogs. Yet all the dogs I have bred were good show dogs, that means they met all the breed standards. I now have a male pit bull which as studded two litters. He is a highly intelligent, well built and with a good temperament. He is a service dog, mine of course, which the woman who trained said he was the best dog she had ever seen. She ask me to allow him to stud a female pit she found that had the same traits. That is why I did it the puppies will be trained as service dogs, the rest will become someones pet. I think small breeds or even people who just want to share the joy should be able to breed if they choose. Most of the overpopulation promble is due to those owners that let their dogs run the streets or just get tried of them and dump them. Pass laws with hoarser punishments for those kinds of owners and require chipping so law enforcement know who is responsible. You will soon seen the overpopulation problem disappear

Answer 10

Even the show dogs usually only produce a few show offspring, most are pet quality. So breeding to better the breed produces plenty of pets. And would result in a lot less homeless animals.