Is This Legal? And do you think it's right?

Question

My son is in honor choir at school. He's 8 years old. His teacher is making the class sing Christian songs for the holidays. This is a public school not private. I thought there was a law against this. Is this a part of seperating church from goverment? I thought religion was not allowed in public schools.

I find it offense for many reasons, mainly because there are more than one religion at the school, not all the people there are Christians. Also I don't want the school teaching him about God, that's my job. He's come home from school on Halloween saying that it was the Devils birthday and we should not celebrate it. Of course I told him that was false but he was still worried.

Isn't it illegal to make them sing songs that convey one religion. I think if they sung other songs that are for other religions maybe it wouldn't be as bad. But according to the school being a Christian is the only way to go. I thought this was illegal?

Yes, but the thing is it's illegal for religion to be in the schools. That's what I'm trying to say.

I knew I was opening a can of worms...it's so damn funny the way you "Christians" judge others. I mean very funny! Thanks for the giggle.
The POINT is that it's not legal. You Christians think that you are the only 'true' religion and you hold on to that with everything you have because there's nothing else in your brains.
And at 8 a child doesn't know who Jesus is or what religion is? Wow, I don't know about you but my son GOES to church. Funny how you automatically think I have no religion. Most of you people are so judgemental, what in the world happened to "Judge not lest ye be judged" Oh, wait, I get it...you're made in God's image so you're allowed to judge right? Is that your hope?
And the point was it's illegal and disrespectful of people who have a different religion, but being that your Christian you don't care about that either?
Last year there were many parents offended. But hey, they weren't Christian so they must not matter...I feel so sorry for some of you.

Wow this is fun, some of you are really offended, funny how I can't voice my thoughts but you sure can. Even if that includes being rude to me. Very Godlike, I bet God is up there smiling with all the angels and saying to himself "yes today is a good day, look at all that judging and look how rude they can be" Congrats to you!

PS
Honor Choir is for children who are musically gifted. Just thought I would add that since some of you didn't know. Can you believe ME raising a child who is more gifted than MOST of you put together??? Wow, sucks doesn't it? LOL

Ok, this answers my question without being treated badly. I still think it's wrong not to include other religions there ARE holidays right around the same time as Christmas. But keep your eyes closed to that ok?

May school assemblies or special events include religious music or drama? Yes. Religious music or drama may be included in school events that are part of a secular program of education. The content of school special events, assemblies, concerts and programs must be primarily secular, objective and educational, and may not focus on any one religion or religious observance and may not appear to endorse religion over non-religion or one religion over another. 44 Such events must not promote or denigrate any particular religion, serve as a religious celebration, or become a forum for religious devotion. Student participation should be voluntary. Thus, a school's choral group can sing songs that are religious in nature but may only do so if the song is part of a larger program.

To Jbay06...oh this is such fun!
First off, don't call me a *****. Secondly my *** does not need to "stay home" we'll leave that up to you your ghetto school. It's not my fault your school is too cheap to provide for the students. I do not go around with petitions or anything saying that it's wrong to deny Jews and African Americans their holidays. I also don't go on a public forum and call people names. I asked a very simple question...one even you should have been able to grasp but in your pig headedness you didn't understand it.
Another thing I take it as a personal threat against my child about beating him up. Of course he's a 3rd Degree yellow belt [which is something else you probably don't understand] so he'd be able to deal with you alone. Threatening an 8 year old, what are you about 9? Does mommy know you are on the computer? Yeah, my child will go places and do things you can't imagine, when we get there, we'll light a candle for you.

Answer 1

It's 100% illegal.

Is it just one teacher, or a more deeply-entrenched problem? If it's just one teacher, contact the principal & school board. Otherwise, try the ACLU.

As for the previous poster, who commented favorably on "bringing religion back into the schools"... whose religion?

Would you object if your children were being taught about Allah, and to answer the Call to Prayer? Or how about being taught the virtues of Kali (Hindu Goddess of destruction)?

Many of us have perfectly well-developed religious lives that DO NOT involve Christianity. And we have a Constitutional right to practice those non-Christian religions.

Just as you would object to your child being taught that anyone who doesn't worship Allah is an infidel, so we object to our children being force-fed Christian ideology (including some of the pure hatred & bigotry that's being disucussed here -- "Devil's Birthday" indeed!) in a public school.

Answer 2

Hehehe...wanted to weigh in on this earlier but got side tracked.


It seems you answered your own question. Singing a song (especially a well known song such as Handel's Messiah for instance) is not the same as teaching about God in class.

As for the seperation of Church and state..... Well where I live, the public schools double as churches for various denominations. Prayers are said at the beginning and end of every football game (it is after all a rough sport). Children still recite the Pledge of Allegance with that great phrase, "under God" in it every morning before class starts.

Of course where I live, the phrase, "So what church do you go to?" Always follows the phrase, "Hi, I don't think I know you, my name is Dapiek how are you?"

Quite frankly if the ACLU tried to seperate the State from the Church down here we would be reinacting the civil war all over again. Besides, the intent behind the "Seperation of Church and State" is that the State (Governing force) cannot tell the Church what to do. Not that the Church cannot influence the public through public means. A school system is not a governing body, it has no authority over anyone's lives. It is entrusted by the people of a community to teach the children of the community they way the community wants the children taught (for instance down here, corporal punishment in public schools is legal, in other parts of the country it is not).

Unfortunately there is only two things that we know for sure, God is perfect and we are NOT. So when Man decided to try to make some laws, and others tried to interpret the laws, everything got all mixed up. Somehow our laws now ignore the "we the people" law and instead worry more about how someone some 1000 miles away might feel about how or what, you and your children are doing.

Answer 3

You can really see there is no separation of chruch and state in a lot of Texas schools. Many of the schools will rent the building to "gypsy" churches, that is a church with no assets. Church services are held and religious material is always left behind (pamphlets and such). A test was made to attempt to rent a school in a district that was having christian services. The group attempting to rent it was a pagan group. The district refused because it was a bunch of "devil worshipers." Ignorance runs rampant among christians.

Think how many students wear small crosses around their neck, yet if you wear a pentagram, you have to remove it because you are a devil worshiper.

Paganism and Witchcraft are the most misunderstood religions. They never tortured or killed people for not being like them. Pity christians can't say the same.

Answer 4

"Christian Songs"... What songs would you be referring to?? Silent Night?? What?? If they're singing Christmas songs, ones that have been around for many many decades -- how could they be doing anything illegal? They're songs celebrating the season... and the holiday. If you don't celebrate Christmas - but rather another holiday... maybe you can suggest to the school to sing a song that celebrates it. (that is if any exist)
Singing a Christmas song does not promote teaching religion... Just fun and skill for the kids singing it. If you don't approve - have your son sit out. Though I'd think doing that wouldn't be fun for him.

... I've never heard such a thing as honor choir ... do they only put the really talented kids in that? It's not an academic subject, so I wouldn't see why you need to be considered honor, average or remedial for the subject of choir. (esp a subject which is an elective.... it's either choir or band)


(Edit:) Why are you using this question as a vehicle for discussion? You asked a question - people are giving you their thoughts - Yet you find it necessary to insult their answers... and make such comments. IF you feel your ideals and thoughts are the only correct ones -- then DON'T bother to post anything. Each person's answer doesn't require your imput ... especially since it's only to those that are not in agreement with you.

If you're so concerned what others are teaching your kid... Homeschool him. This way you can shelter him from the world as much as you see fit.

Answer 5

I'm not sure how things vary state to state (if at all), but I believe it IS illegal for the choir to sing only Christian songs/songs of worship. And the answer is not "quit the choir", because all students have the right (according to the law) to participate in school activities without feeling religious oppression - including the choir and the winter program. It's not about "ruining" the program, it's about making it enjoyable for everyone.

I think you should start by talking to the teacher or the school principal. Let them know your concerns, and maybe suggest a few songs that still fit the winter spirit without promoting one religion over the rest. If you don't get anywhere there, go to the school board. And make sure to research the law. Go to your department of education webpage for your state, or the national one, and see if you can find the laws related to this. Also, the anti-defamation league has some information about this.

Good luck, to you and your son.

Answer 6

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Answer 7

It's not a big deal. My daughter's class is putting on a Holiday concert and they are singing a Jewish song. I'm not Jewish but I'm not offended by them singing a Jewish song. People make too much out of things like this, it's like they have nothing better to do, some people are just too uptight. I'm glad that my daughter has learned a little bit about the Jewish faith, and also Christianity, from their practicing these songs and the teacher explaining elements of the songs, especially since we don't go to church right now. Kids learn about the world at school, and the fact is that religions are a part of this world and therefore worth learning about. I don't think kids should be forced to pray at school, but at the same time if some kids want to pray at school they shouldn't be forced not to pray. And I have no problem with the words "Under God" being part of the Pledge of Allegiance. If you don't like it, don't say it, but just because you don't like it don't force everyone else to stop saying it! Many Christmas songs are "Christian" because duh, Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. Loosen up, if you have such a big problem with it take your kid out of the choir, then you can deal with your upset boy that is being deprived of something he loves because it offends your delicate sensibilities.

Answer 8

Can you imagine forcing children to sing songs that carry a message of hope and love? How dare they sing "Joy to the World", "Silent Night" and "Hark the Herald Angels Sing".You say that you want to teach your children about God however I think you need to find God yourself. Most school Christmas concerts have seasonal songs,not just Christian songs. It never ceases to amaze me that people are offended by Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ.The people who are offended never seem to complain about the paid holiday,few decline the day off work.Do you also complain about merchants that have about two months of boxing day sales.These boxing day sales are also about love,love of money. The States and Canada was settled by people who were seeking new lives and freedom which included the right to practise their religion free of persecution.While every segment of society seems to have their rights enshrined in government documents it seems Christians are supposed to live in the shadows and not speak out. Schools try to be sensitive to their student population. Join your P.T.A. and work toward more inclusion if you wish but don't deny others their rights in the meantime. Just to let you know Halloween originally had its roots in pagan rituals concerning harvests.Today it is just a fun night of make believe for kids.

Answer 9

Sure. Just sing about Santa, Christmas Trees and Frosty. All is better. Actually, Santa was origianlly a Christian figure, the Christmas Tree is a Pagan thing, and Frosty is rooted in Mother Nature, which could be a Native American religious thing.

Christmas is about Christ's birth. Why shouldn't Christmas songs talk about Him?

Answer 10

Hmm.. yeah making them stick to ONE religion may be problematic. At my child's school they sung some Christian, some Jewish, a few cute African diddy's about joy and giving.... and some ol' time Christmas favorites (Dreaming of a white Chistmas, for example). A little bit to make everyone happy. Why not try and talk to the Choir Director about your concerns in a very nice professional manner and then perhaps suggest a few non-religious tunes that you and your family enjoy that she can use next year.

Communication is the key.

Answer 11

I agree with the person who already responded and said that Christmas is a Christian holiday and if you don't agree with it then dont celebrate it. Christmas is not supposed to be about Santa and getting presents it's about Jesus' birthday, thats why we are celebrating. I also don't believe in it, but at the same time I don't get angry at people when they do. I don't see why it's such a big problem. I would be worried about other things than a teacher trying to teach your child religion.