If the Trinity was a new teaching in the acient church (from Nicea) then why was there not a schism?

Question

Here is a study resource if you want to give an educated answer:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#III

Sec, I'll get a counter source...

http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_03.htm

http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/trinity.htm

Father K: I know. The point was that someone tell me if it was limited or widespread.

The Bible was not edited, but some books were not included.

raVar: Yes, ambiguity exists.

There is no ambiguity that Jesus and the Father are in perfect unity and never seperated. Sorry Jehovah's witnesses.

And that is the mystery of the Trinity.

Answer 1

There was. Arians were non-Trinitarians, and Arianism persisted as a distinct church for centuries after Nicea. Notably the Goths remained Arians for a long time. There were plenty of other non-Trinitarian groups -- the Ebionites come to mind.

Trinitarianism simply had the weight of Imperial authority behind it. And also, from an entirely different POV, it involved a philosophical elaboration of the categories of substance and personhood which had an incalculable positive influence on the culture of the west. The controversy reached its conclusion in the Council of Chalcedon about a century after Nicea, and IMHO, the personalist metaphysics of Chalcedon is the ultimate root of western notions of the value of the human person and of civil rights, racial and sexual equality, etc.

Answer 2

Why even have the issue "settled" in that council, if it was not an issue to begin with?

Simply because I am baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, does not mean that I have to believe they are the same person. That's a pretty big leap. I simply recognize that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all neccessary for my salvation.

Especially when you consider John 14:28, and Matthew 24:36 where Jesus specifically states that his Father knows more, and is greater than he is.

Is Jesus a god? Absolutely. In the Hebrew sense of the word. Ela', or he is a "Mighty One". Even Moses was appointed as "God" to Pharoah, by God (Without the definite article) It doesn't mean that Moses WAS God.

"See! Here I have made you God to Pharoah." - Exodus 7:1

Ones may try to point to Genesis. They make it seem that any time God says "us"; that MUST mean he was . . . . talking to himself? He could never talk to anyone else in heaven? It doesn't *prove* anything.

Ones point to Jesus prayer (Which a prayer is a might confusing, if you are praying to yourself) where he prays about being "One with the Father again), but then leave out the part later on in the prayer where he prays that to the Father that all his disciples be one with the Father, *just* *as* *they* are one. So, does the Trinity become a quadinity? Sextenity?

Why is the lamb of God, in Revelation, *approaching* the throne of God?

To disprove the Trinity, one simply needs other Bible verses. To try to prove it, one comes up with non Biblical explanations and "reasonings" for these verses.

Jesus and Paul both prophesied that when they were gone, the Church would become split, and teach apostate teachings. Strangely enough, you have this council 300 years later teaching that Jesus is God.

And what happened to Yahweh? "He Who Causes to Become whatsoever to Become". Did he suddenly become the quiet one? You have Bible manuscripts that we now KNOW were tampered with, because we have the original translations that New Testament writers would quote from, and they quoted from Scriptures that stated: "And Yahweh said . . ." (Such as when Jesus read Isaiah 61:1,2 in the synagogue), but the manuscripts show that during the time period of the council of Nicea, they were removing the divine name from the New Testament. Jesus specifically read God's name aloud, but the New Testament versions were removing it. According to Revelation, that's a big no-no. Thankfully, many Bible translations are restoring it, namely, those in non-English translations. Translations into modern languages, particularly those used by missionaries, have followed this example. Thus many African, Asian, American and Pacific-island language versions of the Greek Scriptures use the name Yahweh liberally, so that readers can clearly see the difference between the true God and the false ones. The name has appeared, too, in versions in European languages.

One's try to point to the meaning of Jesus name, showing that he's God. Again, a pretty big stretch. But what does Isaiah's name mean? About the same thing, "Salvation of Yahweh".

So rather than using the Bible, a Trinitarian just ends up saying "It's all a mystery"; because nothing in the Bible supports this teaching. If was such a mystery, at least God would put the word TRINITY in the Bible to begin with.

Answer 3

You need to understand a few things.

1. When the bible was canonized by the Nicean Council; you had two categories of people. The educated priests, and the illiterate peasants.

2. Are you aware that the church made it illegal for a private citizen to own a copy of the bible? It was so because scribes could only produce 3-4 copies of the scriptures in their life time.

3. The Catholics kept those laws on the books for even 100 years AFTER Gutenberg invented the printing press and the Gutenberg bible.

Since the peasants were uneducated; and did not have their own bible to read and study; they did not have much chance in refuting the claims of the priests after the the bible was edited.

Answer 4

Sorry that I do not answer directly.

The trinity is hard to understand for many people. 3 people yet one person. Though this is not theological, here is a thought concept.

Put a coin in your hand. Look at this coin, let us say what you see is heads, or the human aspect of God, or Jesus. Turn the coin over, what you see is tails, it is the spiritual aspect of God, the Holy Spirit. Close your hand, what is in it? Is it head or tails, Jesus or Holy Spirit? Honest, answer the question. What is in your hand?






I want to add spaces so you think about it and answer. However, the answer is that what is in your hand is a coin, or what was defined as God. Is God two-sided or dualistic? Sounds kind of stupid to me. God is God. So what is God? This is an infinite circle. I respectfully get off the train. Believe what you wish. God is God and he is made up of the material aspect of Jesus and the immaterial aspect of the Holy Spirit.

Take care,
Ted

Answer 5

Well - there was a schism, in a sense. The Arians did not exactly go away after Nicea...in case you have not noticed, they still ring your doorbell on Saturday mornings.

St. Athanasius himself had to go into hiding from the Arians.

Do a web-search for Athanasius contra mundo (against the world.)

Answer 6

Sister If you can find ONE verse, Just ONE VERSE where the Apostles of OLD ever Bptizes anyone in the TITLE of THE FATHER, SON, HOLY GHOST. I Know it says NAME( SINGULAR TERM) I want just one verse to back up your trinity teachings, & don't say they were btipzd in the name of the father, son, holy ghost. No they did not & anyone that was born by John Had to be rebapizted all over again in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, not that is those that John, Bptized & up untill paul ask them how were they baptized & they say unto John baptism, Then John cammanded them to be Re-baptized over again in the Name Of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is THE NAME OF ALL 3 OFFICES WORK OF GOD, BUT NOT # PERSONS. Jesus Christ Was that redemptive name

Answer 7

Jehovah's Witnesses are Christians; they teach that Christ was and is divine and of the same nature as God.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that no salvation occurs without Christ, that accepting Christ's sacrifice is a requirement for true worship, that every prayer must acknowledge Christ, that Christ is the King of God's Kingdom, that Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, that Christ is immortal and above every creature, even that Christ was the 'master worker' in creating the universe!

Jehovah's Witnesses love and respect and honor Christ. However, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Scriptures quite plainly demonstrate that Jesus and the Almighty are separate distinct persons, and the Almighty created Jesus as His firstborn son.

(Colossians 1:15) the firstborn of all creation

(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.

(Revelation 3:14) the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

(Philippians 2:5-6) Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God

(John 8:42) Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

(John 12:49) I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak

(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am

(1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him

(Matthew 20:23) this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father

(1 Corinthians 11:3) I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; ...in turn the head of the Christ is God

(John 20:17) I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him

Thanks again for an opportunity to share what the bible actually says about the distinct persons of Jesus Christ the Son and Jehovah God the Father!

Learn more!
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/
http://watchtower.org/e/20050422/
http://watchtower.org/e/20020515/
http://watchtower.org/e/pr/article_04.htm

Answer 8

I don't understand your comment about "Sorry Jehovah's Witnesses"

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus and the Father are in perfect unity, and never have been separated in thought and actions. (Heb 1:3)

Just because they are unity, that doesn't make them the same person.

Cross reference John 10:30 with John 17:11, 21, 1 Cor 3:8 and Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 1:10;

Meditate on Rom 15:5,6 and see if you have the same mental attitude as Christ Jesus?



Constantine's Role at Nicaea

FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.

Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: "Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians."

What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: "Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."

'Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.' —The Encyclopedia Americana

Hence, Constantine's role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology," says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.

None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?

AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.

That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's Trinity began to come into focus.

Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: "The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology."

For more info:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm

Answer 9

I believe the first teachings of trinity were taught in Genesis and I can't see the argument as anything but a waste of time from Genesis years before Christ to Revelation it all seems pretty clear to me. Was Moses involved in this conspiracy and Abraham? If God can create all that there is I am sure he is capable of making his word available to his people.

Answer 10

How could the trinity be a new teaching if it is written in the Bible which was written 300 years before Nicea?
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (Bible - written mid 1st century)