A question to the Roman Catholics about the doctrine of transubstantion (hope the spelling is correct).?

Question

Let's say hypothetically that someone puts poison in the wafers before the 'miracle' takes place and the wafer becomes the literal body of christ (according to the RCC) how many people will survive. None I would say.
Or lets say a crumb falls to the ground (some churches used to have a catcher standing by for this purpose - not sure if they still do) and ends up in the vaccuum cleaner. Will the body of christ be put out in the trash.

Not meaning to be rude but this really seems to be a silly doctrine and another one that scripture doesn't back up.

It is also to note that the RCC doesn't recognise miracles taking place unless you are a saint according to them. We know that not all the priests are classified as saints according to them but yet they are supposed to be performing this 'miracle' everydday.

So how is this doctine true and where did you get this from?

Answer 1

It comes from John chapter 6 (the Bread of Life discourse) and the Last Supper. "Unless you eat the flesh of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life within you."

"This is My body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of Me."

And where did you get that miracles are only recognized if you are a saint? I have been Catholic for 38 years and have never heard that.

God bless,
Stanbo

Answer 2

The argument that the accidental qualities of bread cannot harm the is false. It is of course true that the substance of the bread does not remain after the consecration of the sacred species. However, all the accidents remain, which include not just the exterior appearance, but everything that is subject to the senses and that science can investigate, including the chemical composition. The chemical effects of the 'poision'willl consequently still remain, just as much as the appearance and texture of bread, for they are just as accidental to the real nature of what is there as the appearance and texture.

Here lies the miracle and the mystery of the Blessed Eucharist. It would be a miracle if the accidental qualities of poison were not to harm the body. Although such miracles can happen, we cannot depend upon such an extraordinary intervention of Almighty God. The transubstantiation is but a mystery based on the promises of Christ to be experienced by faith.

Just a side note: In the ancient world (thanks in part to Platonism) a symbol was seen as deeply and intricately connected to the reality that it symbolized, whereas today; since the Enlightenment Period it is: "that's just a symbol" implying a disconnectedness between symbol and reality"

Furthermore, the Species of Bread, which is the Host (Eucharist) is all that is necessary you do not need to recieve the Blood. In fact it is frowned upon to do so due to spillage issues.

In regards to spilling of the Body, due to crumbs; the "catcher" as you call it is 'paten'. This is why it is so very important that only the priest handle the Body of Christ and not a "eucharistic minister". It would behoove all of us faithful and devout Catholics to handle the Host directly, other than on the tongue. But things do happen, and I am sure that the Body of Christ has been swept up inadvertently, however most custodians of the Church actually use a different type of bag when vacuuming and dispose of it properly, i.e., burn it, which is the proper way to dispose of a sacramental.

In regards to the RCC not recognizing miracles unless your a saint is preposterous. I have no idea where you get your information however it is in dire need of updating and other sources for sure. The Catholic church recognizes miracles of all kinds. However there is a longer process called "Beatification" of a person and that to attain the status of "sainthood' there MUST be miracles attached; perhaps that is where your confusion lies.

Blessings

Answer 3

I can understand you questions - they come up pretty often in discussions I have with teenage youth groups.

Let me start from the bottom of your question and work my way back up. The sacrament of the Eucharist is not a miracle - it is an outward sign of an inward reality. In this case, an outward expression of being spiritually fed by God through Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit. (By the way, you don't have to be a saint to perform miracles, but you have to have performed miracles to be officially recognized as a saint.)

So if it isn't a miracle, what is this whole transsubstantiation? Breaking down the word, it means to cross over/beyond the substance of the object. This isn't "substance" as we know it by scientific terms. I promise you, the hosts and wine have the same molecular structure before and after being conscrated. The substance we are talking about is the very essense, the being of the object. It's a branch of philosophy called ontology.

An easier example - try to define what a "chair" is. Why are two objects that look vastly different both considered chairs? And why is it that I can sit on things that aren't chairs and use them as if they were chairs but they are still not considered chairs? (Why do I get scolded, even as an adult, for sitting on a table?)

Transubstantiation in the Eucharist means that the elements (the objects themselves) actually change in being. They start off as bread (or a wafery host) and wine, but by the grace of God, in the name of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit they go beyond that and become something else. They still look and "act" like what they were before consecration (so yes, poison would still kill), but what they truly "are" has changed.

You have one part right - if a conscrated piece of a host fell to the ground and was vaccummed up and thrown out, a piece of the Body of Christ would be out in the trash. This is part of the reason why hosts are used (less crumbs) and that the elements are treated with the utmost respect. Eucharistic Ministers, priests, and acolytes are all trained to watch of things like this. There are scripted procedured to reverantly "dispose" of any sacramental elements that are somehow unfit for consumption.

Answer 4

I am not an RC, but the Episcopal church has a 'similar' belief. The alter guild has special ways of dealing with the crumbs,etc. and it is not thrown in the trash. There is a special sink and when washing the vessels the water goes directly into the ground and not into the sewer.

As to poison in the bread or wine, there is a story about St. Benedict. Someone tried to poison him in this way and when he made the sign of the cross over the chalice it broke into.

The "magic" happens because a Priest in the line of Apostolic Succession has the power that Jesus has when he is at the alter. It is called "persona Christi". It means that at the moment the bread and wine are being consecrated the Priest becomes Christ Himself.

Answer 5

I am not a theologian or philosoper, but I will try to do my best to explain this and also support "Churchmos" perfect explanation. This goes back to the Aristotelian philosophy of "substance" (the content) and "accident" (the appearance). Catholic church believe that after the host (bread) and the wine have been consecrated by a priest in a eucharist ceremony, the bread and wine is not bread and wine anymore, but they are the body and blood of christ. The "appearance/accident" is still there i.e. we can see the same color and taste of the bread and wine. If you need more explanation of the concept, feel free to visit www.catholic.com or www.ewtn.com and find or ask this question to the experts in that sites.

Answer 6

At the Last Supper, Jesus said, “Take this bread. It is my body.” Then he said, “Take this and drink. This is my blood. Do this in memory of me.”

Catholics believe this was the First Eucharist, that through a miracle the bread and wine actually became the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Catholics reenact the Last Supper during every Mass, where God, acting through the priest, changes the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

This is a great sacrament of thanksgiving and unity of Catholics.

With love in Christ.

Answer 7

We got this doctrine directly from Jesus Christ, who gave it directly to his apostles, who were the first bishops and priests of the Church, and who taught and practiced exactly what Jesus preached, long before any new testament scripture had ever been written.

"This is my body. This is my blood. Do this in memory of me."

I suggest that instead of second guessing the will of God, you simply do what he requests, and let him worry about the types of petty details you choose to call into question.

Long ago, God spoke all of creation into existence.

At the first Passover he used the flesh and blood of a lamb to save the first born males of his old testament people from death.

And most certainly, anyone who attempted to use only a SYMBOL or reasonable facsimile of the lambs' flesh and blood would not have lived to see the dawn.

At the fulfillment of the Passover (which we Christians call the Last Supper) the true Lamb of God provided the heavenly food that would save all the new covenant faithful from eternal death.

And just as at the first Passover, anyone who attempts to substitute a mere symbol for the real presence of the Lamb of God ... Jesus Christ ... is likely to be seriously disappointed!

In light of all that, it's a relatively small matter (but a truly great miracle) for the Holy Spirit to transform ordinary bread and wine into the real, authentic and risen, body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ for us, at Mass.

Answer 8

Here's something you might try: read the new testament. If that is too daunting a task for you, try the portions relating to the last supper. Specifically, zero in on the verses surrounding the phrase "Do this is memory of me." Here's a hint, that one liner comes from Jesus.

Answer 9

I'm stuck on the poison wafer thing

Answer 10

Ok, first, the liturgy is specific on what the "ingredients" are to be.

Second, the idea goes like this.

God said at the last supper:
"This is my Body..."
and so it was.