For Christians: God, the bible and pascal's Wager?

Question

1)Do Christians on this site believe Pascal's wager, the idea that belief can be based on an assessment of risk and return, denigrates faith?

2)Do you believe God himself can be reduced to a function of game theory

3)Are people converted through the power of sheer statistics 'true' believers?

I'm a non believer, but I'm interested in the responses. Please note: this is not an opportunity to proselytise, but rather a question in the spirit of open debate.

For those who don't know, Pascal's wager can be summed up as:


"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "

Answer 1

I am answering this question as a Christian.

It is important to remember that this wager was intended to stir up the minds of non-believers. Pascal's point wasn't to convert people JUST based on this logic, but to show atheists/agnostics an alternate way of thinking so they could see why it logically makes sense to believe in God. I think Pascal was hoping to convince people to believe in God, and in the process develop a genuine relationship with God so that people could find truth, happiness, and salvation.

If we want our kids to eat vegetables, do we first tell them about the nutritional content and how healthy it will make them? Yeah, sometimes that works, and we may try that first and it may work (and that would be analogous to telling them about the teachings of Jesus and what Christianity has to offer)... but often we will entice them with something else. For a lot of kids, we'll have to tell them that they can't have dessert until they finish their vegetables. We have to reel them in to eat the vegetables (something good) by using dessert as our means (in this example, Pascal's wager).

1) I don't think Pascal's wager denigrates faith, because he introduced it as a way to get people thinking about God, and to try to convince them that we SHOULD believe in God, even if we don't want to. I think he realized that many people, since their will was not ready or open to believing in God, needed something else to entice or convince them.

2) It would be silly to reduce God ONLY to a function of game theory, since I believe He is much much more amazing than that, but as a philosophical exploration I don't see anything wrong with it. Trying to understand or ponder things from all angles is an interesting and sometimes important exercise.

3) When it comes to understanding the natural world, believing through the power of sheer statistics works. However, when it comes to God, there is only meaning if we truly believe with our hearts and our minds (and our souls, if you want to refer to the Bible quote). People that are logically convinced that God exists aren't true believers of Christianity, or of Jesus Christ. They ARE true believers in the existence of God, though, if they really feel 100% that a God must exist.

However, if you are a Christian, you believe in a very specific kind of God as described by the Bible. This should explain why "sheer statistics" alone won't make one a true believer. If we truly believe in Jesus Christ, then that means we have accepted him as our savior, as our only way to salvation and heaven in the afterlife. If we are Christian we must believe in his life, his teachings, his resurrection, and if we are faithful Christians then we would choose to live a very "Christ-like" life out of love for God.

But back to Pascal's wager... the logic is actually quite convincing to believe in God (and of course, again, we are talking about the Christian God, because that's how Pascal intended the question). If we believe in God and accept Christ, we have all to gain, which is entry into an eternal life of happiness in heaven. In this scenario, we have positive infinity (if we were to quantify this in Pascal's wager).

If we believe in God, but he actually doesn't exist, then we lost a "finite amount." However, I would argue that we wouldn't lose anything, except I guess for our pride (since we were wrong), and some of our time. If we lived a very Christ-like life we wouldn't have really lost anything since we did a lot of good for other people. So using that viewpoint, you have nothing to lose and either everything to gain or a little to gain by believing in God. You are covered, and safe, either way. However, if you (the reader) believe there is no God and thus life has no meaning and we simply just exist, I couldn't make that argument because you'd be a nihilist, and everything I did would have no meaning, whether I did good for people, or was a murderer, because in the end it all doesn't matter. In this scenario we have either a negative finite amount, zero, or a positive finite amount, depending on your viewpoint.

If we don't believe in God, and we are right, that he doesn't exist, then we gain practically nothing (zero) except for the satisfaction that we are correct (if somehow we knew before we died that God doesn't exist). Oh wonderful... in this case we die and become organic material, there is no meaning to life, and we didn't even get to have the consciousness (since we are dead) to get the satisfaction that we were right. In this scenario we have zero, or a positive finite amount, depending on your viewpoint.

In the last case, if we don't believe in God, and He exists, then we are screwed. That would suck if all we had to do was believe and accept Jesus Christ to be "saved" and gain entry into heaven. If we go to hell, as many Christians believe, then it is truly negative infinity. However, if God works a little differently than how a lot of people think, that He is truly just and fair, then maybe it's just a negative finite amount, and who knows, if God is super benevolent then maybe you get a 2nd chance, but either way, you'd lose negative infinity or a negative finite amount (because even if somehow God didn't send you to hell, and gave you a 2nd chance, I'm sure you'd have to earn your way to salvation if you didn't believe in God your whole life).

In conclusion, just believe in God and learn more about him!... hahaha.

Answer 2

Pascals wager is little more than an excuse to not think and perpetuate whatever belief you already have without regard for how terrible it might be. For example, fundamentalists use it as an excuse to continuing to worship an authoritarian sadistic God who would torture anyone for eternity who was not submissive and dared to question any aspect of an absurd belief. It completely throws away the scientific method as a way of determining the validity of any hypothesis by claiming that there is a punishment or reward associated with any idea after ones death beyond any means of verifying that punishment or reward exists at all. A belief or religion based on the fear of losing a wager is a pretty flimsy, superficial religion. It takes courage to have any depth to a life that is not ruled by fear.

Answer 3

I'm not responding as a Christian, but I'll respond anyway with how I usually approach the Pascal's wager argument. Allow me to state first that Pascal was a brilliant mathematician, but this wager is the stupidest wager a smart mathematician has ever taken.

Let's suppose, for argument's sake, that you can pick 1 god to base your faith on, and that god has certain requirements/rules for you to follow in order to be eternally rewarded. I think most theists will agree that this is how the game works.

Now, in order to perform a wager and calculate against odds of outcomes, we have to establish the number of outcomes. Considering that our god must have properties and rules to abide by, we can consider that the set of gods to pick from is the set of gods that have a certain combination of all possible rules/guidelines. Considering we can expand this argument to state that there is an infinite amount of possibilities (and can do so by stating that the arbitrary rules that are enforcable can be formed around a formula such as Cantor's Diagonal Argument ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor%27s_diagonal_argument ), thus is an infinite set.

We then continue on to suggest that we can express the probability of picking a "correct" god as expressed in the limit:

lim n->oo 1 / n

Which, if you know your limits and L'Hopital's rule, is = 0.

Yes, the probability of you picking a correct god, with particular properties, is 0. No chance. Whatsoever. Also note that if we replaced the constant "1" with any sufficiently large integer, the answer is still 0.

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Was Pascal the biggest idiot in mathematics for wagering against infinity? Absolutely.

Answer 4

1. The wager makes sense when one is speaking to a non-believer.
However God is just, or He could not be God, and He is certainly going to know if you are just hedging your bets, as it were, to make sure that you get into Heaven.

As an example, a reporter asked Elvis why he wore a crucifix and the star of David on different chains around his neck. His reply was that he wore both so that he could be sure he could get into Heaven.

2. God can not be reduced to a function of game theory.
One of the greatest pitfalls for believers is the attempt to "put God in a box," or reduce Him to their level of understanding. God Himself says "My ways are not your ways." There is no real theory that can encompass who He is.

3. As for converting people through statistics, no.
Most people who are saved, have the opportunity to observe "real Christians" (believers who live according to their belief in God), see what their lives are like, and they convert because they want that same peace for themselves. People who are momentarily frightened into saying that they believe will become complacent and fall away.

Answer 5

Pascal's wager excludes true faith, which is necessary for eternal life. True faith is alive, active, pro-active even; it is not some wooden, lifeless statistic. Pascal's wager is flawed. Those who rely on it will find themselves on the wrong side of the veil in the judgment.

"...what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good?" (Deuteronomy 10:12-13)

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (James 2:19-22)

True faith in God requires more than just belief in God, as the demons already know.

Answer 6

Pascal was a human and not even inspired by God. What he was doing is preaching his own sermon on the Law of God. In that respect, he was right. Rejection of God is rejection of His promises of salvation ....without which no one with spend eternity with Him.

"Faith" is what is given by God to people who have heard the Law and it's consequence:
Rom 6:20-23
20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(from New International Version)

With faith, a person has a choice. They can continue to seek God, His power and His promises, or avoid God and hope for the best when they die.

It's far better to get God's view of things directly from His revelation in the Bible than to stick with Pascal.

Answer 7

Pascal's wager misses two very important points -

"If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief." This assumes that a supreme being is as narrow-minded as some of his followers - would she/he/it really rank people by what they swear allegiance to, rather than if they were truly good people? Of course not.

Also, "if he does not exist, you have lost nothing either way." Yes, you may have - if you have let your own spirit be beaten down by those who impose their own ways at the expense of yours. Once you stop thinking questioning because of another's boogeyman/control system, you have lost something - your very self.

Answer 8

(1) Nothing denigrates faith.

(2) No

(3) Only God knows if you are a "true" believer.

Answer 9

I think Pascal's wager just proves atheism is in general a bad idea and that you're better off being Agnostic. SOMETHING is right, but you don't know what, and by being undecided, you might get off with a slap on the wrist XD

Answer 10

1) It doesn't matter why someone accepts Christ, if he/she is true in their heart then eventually they will believe for the relationship with Him and not what they can get out of it
2) God Himself cannot be reduced at all
3) Sheer statistics don't save anybody