I have just finished reading "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth". On page 173, it teaches that most of the 144,000 were raised to life in 1914 ( paragraph 21) & that the remaining ones on the earth will pass into that state immediately after death ( paragraph 22), quoting 1 Thess. 4:15 - 17 as evidence.
One problem - Verse 17 says, "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with (the) Lord" (NWT). The Greek word translated "together" - hama - means "at the same time". So how can the Watchtower teach that the 144,000 are resurrected in two stages ?
2006-12-05 05:14:09 · 11 answers · asked by Carlito 3 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
No J.W. takers ?
2006-12-05 05:35:27 · update #1
"...who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some" 2 Timothy 2:18.
2006-12-07 04:51:42 · update #2
Romans 6:5 - "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection". The second "in the likeness" & "His" are translator's insertions, not in the original Greek text. So, it can read, "certainly we also shall be of resurrection".
2006-12-07 05:00:03 · update #3
The context of verses 16 & 17 only show two separate resurrections through the distorted lenses of Watchtower theology. This is not the only instance of such. That's why, according to WT theology, the Jerusalem that will be trampled on (Luke 21:24) is (mis)interpreted as "a spiritual Jerusalem", when the context clearly shows that it is earthly (of course, with that interpretation the 1914 teaching wouldn't fit). Christ's literal, open presence (Acts 1:11 & 12, Zechariah 14:4, Revelation 1:7) is redifined as an "invisible parousia", a convinient doctrine used to explain away unfulfilled WT false prophecy concerning the Lord's second coming. "The man of sin" comes to represent the clergy rather than antichrist who John said was coming (1 John 2:18). When one over - spiritualizes Bible text, it can be made to say just about anything. Peter warned of people such as this (2 Peter 3:16).
2006-12-07 05:16:23 · update #4
1 Thess. 4:15 - 17. Literal English translation of the revised Nestle Greek text -15 For this to you we say by a word of (the) Lord that we the (ones) living remaining to the presence of the Lord by no means may precede the (ones) having slept 16 because (him)self the Lord with a word of command with a voice of an archangel and with a trumpet of God will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise again firstly 17 then we the (ones) living remaining together with them shall be seized in clouds to a meeting of the Lord in air and so always with(the) Lord we shall be.
2006-12-07 05:28:17 · update #5
Regarding the comparison of "hama" with "let's go dutch" - is there any scholarly evidence to suggest that the Greek word can be taken to be a mere idiomatic expression ? Your reasoning is faulty, to say the least...
2006-12-07 05:44:08 · update #6
"Once the total number have been resurrected they all will be together 'at the same time' " ? That's not what the text says - look at the literal Greek in your Kingdom Interlinear Translation if you have one. The Greek clearly shows that they will TOGETHER be seized in clouds to meet with the Lord. Read the Bible, not the Watchtower.
2006-12-07 05:49:35 · update #7
A challenge to all JW's who are sincerely seeking the Lord - Try reading only the Bible for seven days, No WT material, just God's word. Come to God with an open heart & ask Him to show you His truth, if you really mean business with Him. Ask Him to correct you where it is needed. Will you accept ?
2006-12-07 05:53:56 · update #8
Teem says that "at the same time" cannot be the correct translation, yet Achtung heiss says that JW's recognise it as being the correct translation. Who is right ?
2006-12-07 05:57:22 · update #9
Achtung heiss says that JW's note that the term "together" is accurately translated as "at the same time", yet proceeds to say that there is no indication that being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord is a one -time event. How about (as you said) the correctly translated term, "at the same time" ?!?!?!
2006-12-07 06:03:30 · update #10
Having once researched JWs and looked into the history of their organization, I found that what they teach and believe today is not the same as it was 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60 years ago. They keep modifing their doctrine to suit the present circumstances. Most of the members don't notice the changes since it is a gradual change but if you take a look at some of their stuff written 50 years ago and the stuff they put out today you can see the changes.
2006-12-05 05:21:02 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 5⤋
I'm not a JW but, like you, checked out that 'Paradise' book. The confusion might be due to lack of knowing a critical belief of the JWs - the 'day' of Christ's [2nd] invisible presence supposedly began in 1914 and is continuing right through till his 3rd VISIBLE presence which is still future. They take this to mean that anyone professing to have the heavenly calling from 1914 onwards, will be resurrected to heaven immediately they die. But on that future day when Jesus appears VISIBLY, in the clouds, with the angels etc, those still alive with the heavenly calling will be caught up to be with him in the sky, leaving 99.9% of JWs on the earth to go through the impending battle of Armageddon without the benefit of their presence. The second resurrection, however, is supposed to be "to life on the paradise earth of both righteous and unrighteous persons. This will occur after Armageddon." (p173 para 4).
However, up until the mid 1930s, all JWs said they were 'anointed' and had the heavenly calling. Then their leaders 'discovered' a new teaching about the 144,000 and the 'Jonadabs' and very soon most JWs stopped taking the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper. Much more recently they changed another teaching (that the separating of the sheep from the goats had been going on from 1919 till the 1980s) to say it is still future, to start when Jesus returns visibly.
But I would suggest a much bigger problem than the one you mention is this: anybody on earth who is NOT taken up to meet Jesus in the clouds at his 2nd appearing (not his third!) is in trouble - big time! Only those who have been chosen ("the elect") will be selected and taken away from the time of trouble to come. "All the nations of the earth will mourn", and they will be left behind for the Judgment - earth-bound JWs included. The Judgment will not be a 1,000 year period of earth becoming a paradise, as JWs have been fooled into thinking. Until they stop letting a handful of men in Brooklyn do their thinking for them, and start seeking God earnestly, on their knees, the Bible will remain a closed book to them, no matter how adept they are at quoting what their leaders say about it. Awake! It's later than you JWs think!
2006-12-07 04:01:41 · answer #2 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 1⤋
What does Paul actually write there?
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
The fact that some will rise FIRST implies that others will rise LATER, or at a future chronological time. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible to teach that in 1914 Jesus sat on his heavenly throne and soon afterward resurrected faithful dead Christians to heaven. Of course some faithful Christians who held a heavenly calling were still (and still are today) on the earth; they will be resurrected the instant their earthly life ends.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17) Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Jehovah's Witnesses themselves note that "together" is accurately translated "at the same time". This presents no conflict, since there is no indication that being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord" is a one-time event. It happens each time a member of the 144,000 is resurrected to heaven.
Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20001001/article_02.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/jt/
2006-12-05 05:55:48 · answer #3 · answered by achtung_heiss 7 · 8⤊ 1⤋
The context of the verse 16 and verse 17 shows that it is two separate resurrections.
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over,
There are those that rise first, and those remaining over.
Once the total number have been resurrected they all will be together "at the same time".
also if "at the same time" was the correct translation in this verse why didn't the NIV, NASB, and KJV translators record it as such, instead of using 'together'.
Word for word comparisons are nice, but phrasings and meaning are also important.
If I was to say in english "let's go dutch" I don't mean let's go to Holland.
2006-12-05 05:40:34 · answer #4 · answered by TeeM 7 · 9⤊ 1⤋
The JW teaching about 144,000 going to heaven is based on the book of Revelation. However, since the contents of Revelation are symbolic and not literal, it follows that the number of 144,000 is also symbolic. God's grace is not limited to such a tiny number. EVERYONE who believes in Jesus will be saved and there is no suggestion in the Bible that there are two levels of salvation, i.e. some to heaven and the rest to earth.
2006-12-05 06:16:47 · answer #5 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 5⤋
Got to go, there's somebody at the door!!
2006-12-05 05:16:51 · answer #6 · answered by brainlady 6 · 2⤊ 3⤋
Good question hope you get an answer has im sick of them knocking on my door.
2006-12-05 05:21:07 · answer #7 · answered by Ollie 7 · 1⤊ 5⤋
The watchtower is the Salvation Army!!!!!!!!!!!
2006-12-05 05:17:43 · answer #8 · answered by Agustin-Jean F 4 · 0⤊ 6⤋
My brother-in-law is a Jehova's witness.(He's really irritating)Apparently they change their beliefs to fit the current circumstances......
2006-12-05 05:23:15 · answer #9 · answered by festeringhump 4 · 1⤊ 8⤋
jehovah witnesses are hella weird. i have never met one that wasn't a little odd. seriously, it's too controling and overbaring.
2006-12-05 05:22:37 · answer #10 · answered by answer away 3 · 1⤊ 9⤋