The nature of belief?

Question

When one says one must have knowlege of all things in the universe to know there is no god, yet to know there is a god all one needs is belief and faith, isn't that close to saying god doesn't exist?

If god is somthing so elusive that infinite avenues must be exhausted before one can come to the conclusion that it doesn't exist, yet you can know for sure it exists by simply giving it credence, it seems to me that god is something that exists only in the mind of it's believers.

Your thoughts?

icheeknows:

I am interested in your ideas. Especially which scientiffic experiment is set forth in the bible. Please email me if you see this.

Answer 1

My thought is simply this, use the scientific method to find out. First suppose there might be a God and that He wants to commune with you. Then set up an experiment that will have predictable results if performed reliably by anyone. There is such an experiment set out in the Bible, I did it in all sincerity of heart and the predicted results became evident.

If I thought you actually wanted to know and not sit and think (knowledge is circular) then I would explain it to you, but my assumption is thinking is your method of escape and I do not want to ruin it for you.

oh yeah let me point out you have your finger in your nose again

Answer 2

Tricky, tricky!! Be nice.

"Scientists" say the first part of your question: "When one says one must have knowlege of all things in the universe to know there is no god". They are right. You can not "disprove" something until you know enough to do so.

The second part of your question, that you slipped in, is "believers" say: "yet to know there is a god all one needs is belief and faith". That is true also. Are you telling me that you know my internal state, my consciousness better than I do. That is kind of unrealistic.

My faith, which is my personal faith, comes from the fact that when I became open to faith, and prayed, I truly believe I became more in tune with my spirit and God. That was experiential to me and I cannot deny it. I may be wrong, I may be deluded, but, I do not think I am. If I am deluded, it still made me more fully human than I was. It is my choice. And I still follow the facts, use my reason, and am intellectually honest.

However, my free will allows me to be potentially deluded.
Did you know that with your position, you might have the allusion of free will, thus you are deluded?

To me, I believe we have free will, and it seems to be intuitively obvious. I can do whatever I want. Duh and common sense. What's the big deal.

However, I have done some checking and there is a "growing" recognition that pure empiricism (nature only) leads to a conclusion of pure determinism and no free will. To boot, there is a strong science behind it. Top researchers in quantum mechanics, computer science and biochemistry "believe" that brain processes can be fully predictable. If they are fully predictable, then they are determined and we only have the illusion of free will. If you wish, email J.P. about it. He is a brilliant atheist who posts here.

Basic logic, in science, there is no supernatural. Thus, there can be no soul that can affect cause and effect. If there was a soul (spirit), a soul would supernaturally allow us to prevent the cause and effect processes in our mind which are being driven by our brain. A supernatural soul breaks the bonds of cause and effect to allow free will. Since there is no soul, everything is determined.

In my checking I found a quote, like this, "what a cruel universe, to allow us the property of consciousness and awareness, so we could realize we are nothing but complicated robots marching to an end which we cannot affect." I think there is a flaw with pure empiricism. Using philosophy and reason, heck just common sense, you can prove it is wrong. But empiricists are data/logic driven, not reason driven. So we need to find them there facts.

Near death experiences or out of body experiences are a possible way to prove it wrong. Parnia in England is doing a study. I like a remark by Penfield, a world famous brain surgeon, where he would stimulate a part of the brain, and the person's arm or leg would move. The person would then try to fight it and would say, "I" didn't do that, you did. The person's spirit was trying to stop the physical brain, as stimulated by Penfield from doing something.

With your postion, it logically regresses to "No Free Will" and pure determinism.

BTW: God is truth. Science pursues the truth. If god interferes, then there is no truth, and no science. Existence becomes absurd. So do not say, the bible told me yada yada about predestination. I did not quote the bible, so please do not also.

Answer 3

Garbage thesis.
You seem to run around a question and make it a statement.
Knowledge of all things is not comprehensive.
Self defeating at best and delusional.
Belief and faith. If you cannot see the other side of the moon, does it exist?
The proverbial question is an "act" of intelligence and not pure thought.
God is not elusive.
All avenues have not been exhausted as there is only one way.
The deliberate denial exists in the mind and mouth of a non-believer.
That is the fact, not a rhetorical hypothesis.

Get A Grip.

Answer 4

You forget that God has done miracles and continues to do them. Many that came before us got to see great miracles and many witness miracles today. So in that regard, our belief and faith are justified by the work God does in our lives as believers. That is how we know he exists not just on blind faith alone.

Just because atheists are incapable of disproving the existence of God doesnt mean that God cannot prove himself either to his believers right now or to all over the course of time.

Answer 5

It does not matter how philosophical you are in expressing your doubt of God's existence......... But I can say with all honesty that God does exist. And is full of blessing even for you. In spite of your negative feeling toward God. I know that I have been blessed by God and that God has saved my life on numerous occasion. For there are certain situation that happen, that mankind can not possibly excape or survive from. He prays to God, and for reason that no one could ever see comming or understand a miracles happen and he excapes totally un-harmed. Then after all is said and done you sit back and think of how things happen in your situation in sequential order. and some how you will know that what happen is beyond mankind comprehension, and you will know beyond any doubt that a miracle has taken place......... So mankind has as much reason to believe in God's existence as you have to not believe. And in spite of what you or anyone that think like you say or do mankind will continue to believe in God's existence..................................... Any may you find God someday and be a recipient of one or more of God miracles.......................

Answer 6

God has given proof. Man just rejects it. When Jesus walked the Earth, the Pharisees asked for proof of His nature - this was right after they had personally witnessed several miracles. He basically answered that He would not give them any other proof because they didn't believe what they had just seen. The only other proof He would show them was that He would rise from the dead in three days. The tomb is empty. That's pretty compelling proof.

Answer 7

I like that one a lot, I never thought of it like that before. I'd have to agree with you since I was already an atheist, I can only hope that this makes some beleivers think twice before using this particular argument.

Answer 8

I believe bc God exists; it's our human efforts that screw things up. We make up opinions to devise ways of explaining His existence, then we quarrel over whose opinion is more or less wrong or right. He exists for me. But bc others don't quite agree with me, it makes it that much more harder for me to carry out that belief; nevertheless, I continue to trust the process. God is in the process ...

Now where were we? ....

Answer 9

*%*^#^@#$ Yahoo deleted my first attempt at answering this!

The point is, you can look for a lifetime and never find God if you aren't willing to SEE what He has placed here for you.

God DOES offer a test. He SAYS 'Test Me!' concerning the giving of tithes and offerings. And I have found his test quite enlightening. But you'll have to perform your own test if you want the results.

Answer 10

I can't see what your asking at all!

But i'll venture this: The fossil record doesn't lie, it's incomplete, but neverthe less, a fact.

Same applies the the cosmos.