John 1:3 states “All things came into existence through [Greek dia] him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence”. This according to Trinitarians prove that Jesus is the creator. The other translations used “by” instead of through in John 1:3. So no wonder there’s a confusion. Looking at Strong’s Greek dictionary , it defines dia as
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
Notice it states the CHANNEL of an act,THROUGH.
A channel is a “way, course, or direction of thought or action” according to www.m-w.com.
2006-11-14 04:29:06 · 13 answers · asked by trustdell1 3 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
We know that Jesus is the Way. Jesus is therefore the way/channel that God used in creation. Notice the same usage of the Greek word “dia” in John 1:17 – “17 Because the Law was given through Moses”. The Law’s real source and origin is God, not Moses. Moses is used by God as a means/channel to give the laws to the Israelites. Moses is not the owner & source of the Law.
The difference of the source and channel is made clear in 1 Cor 8:5 ,6
6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
God the Father, Jehovah, is the source (OUT OF (Greek Ek, eX) whom all things are). Greek ek, ex means “A primary preposition denoting origin” . Notice ORIGIN. This word , ek, ex, differentiates God from Jesus. Jesus is the channel “THROUGH” whom all things are but the real source and origin (ek, ex) is the Father.
2006-11-14 04:29:26 · update #1
That’s why when the Bible used the word Creator it is SINGULAR not PLURAL. See Romans 1:25 , 1 Pet 4:19, Isa 43:15, etc. Notice creator not creators, is not are, so it is only one not three.
2006-11-14 04:29:45 · update #2
Col 1:16 also states “for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. – New Living translation
Greek word "en" -
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest ...
In Col 1:16 it used through/in/by (Greek "en"). Note that Jesus was used as the instrument by God in creating everything. (See usage of en in John 17:19, Luk 11:18 – KJ used through for these cases).
So the Bible agrees that Jesus was used as an instrument/channel through which God created everything.
That’s why in Col 1:15 Jesus is called “of all the CREATION/every creature ” he is the firstborn. It also agrees with Prov 8 where the figurative wisdom (Jesus) is called the master worker.
Thanks.
2006-11-14 05:50:25 · update #3
Yes, Jesus has a role in the creation. But it doesn't mean that he is the Creator. Jesus is the channel/instrument used by the Father in the creation. The real source & origin is only one, God the Father. That's why Jesus confirmed that even his source of life is his Father (John 5:26)
2006-11-14 08:08:01 · update #4
Regarding John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, there is an interesting parallel thought in Hebrews. Frankly, it seems impossible to imagine insisting on trinitarianism after reading the apostle Paul's explicit writings on this matter:
(Hebrews 1:1-4) God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom [God] appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 [Jesus] is the reflection of [God's] glory and the exact representation of [God's] very being, and [Jesus] sustains all things by the word of [Jesus'] power; and after [Jesus] had made a purification for our sins [Jesus] sat down on the right hand of [Jehovah] the Majesty in lofty places. 4 So [Jesus] has become better than the angels
Sadly, trinitarians repeatedly misapply scripture while they insist upon worldly philosophy, Greek paganisms, and quotes from other Babylon-loving Trinitarians to support their unscriptural ideas. By contrast, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Scriptures alone quite plainly demonstrate that Jesus and the Almighty are separate distinct persons, and the Almighty created Jesus as His firstborn son.
(Colossians 1:15) the firstborn of all creation
(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.
(Revelation 3:14) the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God
(Philippians 2:5-6) Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God
(John 8:42) Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth
(John 12:49) I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak
(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am
(1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him
(Matthew 20:23) this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father
(1 Corinthians 11:3) I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; ...in turn the head of the Christ is God
(John 20:17) I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.
(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah
(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him
Thanks again for an opportunity to share what the bible actually says about the distinct persons of Jesus Christ the Son and Jehovah God the Father!
Learn more!
http://watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/
2006-11-14 08:27:28 · answer #1 · answered by achtung_heiss 7 · 2⤊ 1⤋
As far as I know, you can translate "di" (not "dia") either way.
The Greek word in question here is "di," a form of "dia." Strong’s Concordance says, "a prim[itive]. Prep[osition]. Denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional): -after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import." Thus "by" and "through" are both legitimate translations.
This is a moot point, because nobody says Jesus made everything apart from the Father. All say that Jesus had a role, along with the Father and Spirit, in creating everything, as Colossians 1:16 shows.
Peace.
p.s. -- try to find YA answerer "Sunesteromai" (I trust you know what that means, since you purport to know Greek) for his opinion.
2006-11-14 04:40:48 · answer #2 · answered by Suzanne: YPA 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
Not a bad argument, and I don't disagree with the general premise (if I understand correctly), that Jesus created the world under the direction of God. It looks like you must be a Jehovah Witness, and if I am correct in that assumption, then there are many other issues of your religion I think are logically flawed, even though I don't think this one is.
The scriptures also state WE are one with Christ, but I still think I am separate...but maybe not. I guess I'll wait and see.
2006-11-14 04:59:19 · answer #3 · answered by straightup 5 · 1⤊ 0⤋
with the intention to extremely understand John 13:a million-16 we favor to take the different gospel costs into interest. each and each and every gospel author has yet another aspect to characteristic to the narrative. Our question must be, what replaced into happening on the most suitable Passover of Christ that He felt that He necessary to bathe His disciples feet? we favor to flow decrease back to Matthew 20:20-28 to make sure that there replaced into some dissension between the discipes over who might want to be more effective and Christ's practise about that atttitude. that is repeated in Matthew 23:11-12, so of route He idea that the nonetheless were not getting the message. This competition between the disciples over who replaced into more effective contraptions the extent for Yeshua to coach them once and for all that their attitudes were incorrect, for this reason the footwashing. The footwashing replaced into to instruct them how they were to treat one yet another, something they were having a issue with. The scriptures aspect out that even Judas were given his feet washed. Then we come to Luke 22:24-27,after the footwashing and after the bread and wine, and we see the competition between the disciples replaced into nonetheless happening, so the message had not yet sunk in. The footwashing of John 13 replaced into done as an party. church homes have became it into an ordinance. It replaced into not meant to be one of those ingredient, that is there for us to appreciate the attitude we as Christians must have in route of one yet another. An attitude of service in love and humility.
2016-11-29 03:27:13 · answer #4 · answered by cheathem 4 · 0⤊ 0⤋
AMEN, BROTHER!!!!
Further to that---there is not ONE PLACE found in the Bible that uses the word TRINITY.
Who was Jesus praying to?
Who raised him from the dead?
Who said "The Father is greater than I am?"
Please, Get a grip folks!!!
2006-11-14 04:36:21 · answer #5 · answered by avaddohn-Apollyon 4 · 2⤊ 2⤋
"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name (NOT THE NAMES) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (St. Matt. 28:20).
Many Christians begin to learn about the Trinity through knowledge of Baptism. This is also a starting point for others in comprehending why the doctrine matters to so many Christians, even though the doctrine itself teaches that the being of God is beyond complete comprehension. The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed are structured around profession of the Trinity, and are solemnly professed by converts to Christianity when they receive baptism, and in the Church's liturgy, particularly when celebrating the Eucharist. One or both of these creeds are often used as brief summations of Christian faith by mainstream denominations.
One God
God is one, and the Godhead a single being: The Hebrew Scriptures lift this one article of faith above others, and surround it with stern warnings against departure from this central issue of faith, and of faithfulness to the covenant God had made with them. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Deuteronomy 6:4) (the Shema), "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Deuteronomy 5:7) and, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel and his redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6). Any formulation of an article of faith which does not insist that God is solitary, that divides worship between God and any other, or that imagines God coming into existence rather than being God eternally, is not capable of directing people toward the knowledge of God, according to the trinitarian understanding of the Old Testament. The same insistence is found in the New Testament: "...there is none other God but one" (1 Corinthians 8:4). The "other gods" warned against are therefore not gods at all, but substitutes for God, and so are, according to St. Paul, simply mythological or are demons.
So, in the trinitarian view, the common conception which thinks of the Father and Christ as two separate beings, is incorrect. The central, and crucial affirmation of Christian faith is that there is one savior, God, and one salvation, manifest in Jesus Christ, to which there is access only because of the Holy Spirit. The God of the Old is still the same as the God of the New. In Christianity, it is understood that statements about a solitary god are intended to distinguish the Hebraic understanding from the polytheistic view, which see divine power as shared by several separate beings, beings which can, and do, disagree and have conflicts with each other. The concept of Many comprising One is quite visible in the Gospel of John, chapter 17, verses 20 through 23.
God exists in three persons
The "Shield of the Trinity" or "Scutum Fidei" diagram of traditional Western Christian symbolism.This one God however exists in three persons, or in the Greek hypostases. God has but a single divine nature. Chalcedonians — Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants — hold that, in addition, the Second Person of the Trinity — God the Son, Jesus — assumed human nature, so that he has two natures (and hence two wills), and is really and fully both true God and true human.
The singleness of God's being and the multiplicity of the Divine Persons together account for the nature of Christian salvation, and disclose the gift of eternal life. "Through the Son we have access to the Father in one Spirit" (Ephesians 2:18). Communion with the Father is the goal of the Christian faith and is eternal life. It is given to humans through the Divine union with humanity in Jesus Christ who, although fully God, died for sinners "in the flesh" to accomplish their redemption, and this forgiveness, restoration, and friendship with God is made accessible through the gift to the Church of the Holy Spirit, who, being God, knows the Divine Essence intimately and leads and empowers the Christian to fulfill the will of God. Thus, this doctrine touches on every aspect of the trinitarian Christian's faith and life; and this explains why it has been so earnestly contended for, throughout Christian history.
Source(s):
Douay Rheims Bible
78 References and Illusions To The Trinity Found In The Sacred Scriptures
I. Even the Old Testament makes definite reference both to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 11:2 "...the Spirit ... the Lord ... Him"
Isaiah 42:1 "My Servant ... I ... My Spirit ... upon Him"
Isaiah 48:16 "The Lord God ... His Spirit ... sent Me"
Isaiah 61:1 "Spirit of the Lord God ... upon Me ... the Lord"
Isaiah 63:9 "He ...the Angel of His Presence ... His Holy Spirit"
II. Close examination of the following New Testament scriptures will make obvious to any student of the Bible that the doctrine of the Godhead is truth.
Matthew 1:20, 21 "the Lord (the Father) ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Matthew 3:16, 17 "Jesus ... the Spirit of God ... a Voice from heaven (the Father)"
Matthew 12:18 "I ... My Spirit ... on Him"
Matthew 22:42, 43 "Christ ... the Spirit ... Lord (the Father)"
Mark 1:9-11 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Mark 12:35, 36 "Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord (the Father)"
Luke 1:35 "the Holy Spirit ... the Highest ... the Son of God"
Luke 2:26, 27 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ ... Jesus"
Luke 3:21, 22 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... a Voice from heaven ... My beloved Son"
Luke 10:21 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... Father"
Luke 12:9, 10 "God ... the Son ... the Holy Spirit"
John 3:5 "Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
John 3:34, 35 "God ... the Spirit ... the Father ... the Son"
John 4:24, 25 "God ... a Spirit ... Messiah... Christ"
John 14:16, 17, 26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... in My name"
John 15:26 "the Comforter ... the Father ... of Me"
John 20:21, 22 "Jesus ... Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:32,33 "Jesus ... God ... the Father ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 2:38,39 "Jesus Christ ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 4:30,31 "Jesus ... the Holy Spirit ... God"
Acts 5:31,32 "God ... a Prince and Savior ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 7:55 "the Holy Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
Acts 8:14_16 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Jesus"
Acts 10:38 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Acts 10:46_48 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... the Lord"
Acts 11:16, 17 "the Lord... the Holy Spirit ... God ... the Lord Jesus Christ"
Acts 20:21_23 "God ... Jesus ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 1:1,3,4 "God ... His Son, Jesus Christ ... the Spirit"
Romans 5:5,6 "God ... the Holy Spirit ... Christ"
Romans 8:2,3 "the Spirit ... Jesus ... God ... His own Son"
Romans 8:8,9 "God ... the Spirit ... the Spirit of Christ"
Romans 8:16, 17 "the Spirit ... God ... Christ"
Romans 14:17, 18 "the Holy Spirit ... Christ... God"
Romans 15:12, 13 "Root of Jesse (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:16 "Jesus ... God ... the Holy Spirit"
Romans 15:30 "The Lord Jesus Christ ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 6:10, 11 "God ... the Lord Jesus... the Spirit"
I Corinthians 12:4_6 "Spirit ... Lord... God"
1 Corinthians 7:39, 40 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
1 Corinthians 8:2 "the Lord Jesus ... the Spirit ... God"
2 Corinthians 3:3, 4 "the Spirit ... Christ ... God"
2 Corinthians 13:14 "Jesus... God ... the Holy Spirit"
2 Corinthians 5:5, 6 "God ... the Spirit ... the Lord (Jesus)"
Galatians 4:6, 7 "God ... the Spirit ... Son ... Father ... God ... Christ"
Ephesians 2:18 "through Him (Jesus) ... Spirit ... the Father"
Ephesians 2:21, 22 "the Lord ... God ... the Spirit"
Ephesians 3:14, 16 "the Father ... Jesus Christ ... His Spirit"
Ephesians 4:4-6 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God and Father"
Ephesians 5:18-20 "Spirit ... Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Father"
Colossians 1:6-8 "God ... Christ ... Spirit"
1Thessalonians 4:6-8 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
1 Thessalonians 5:18, 19 "God ... Father ... Christ ... Jesus ... Spirit"
2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14 "God ... Lord... God ... Spirit ... Lord Jesus Christ"
Titus 3:4-6 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
Hebrews 2:3, 4 "Lord (Jesus) ... God ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 3:4, 6, 7 "God ... Christ... Holy Spirit"
Hebrews 6:4-6 "Holy Spirit ... God ... Son"
Hebrews 9:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
Hebrews 10:29-31 "Son of God ... Spirit ... Lord ... God"
1 Peter 1:2 "God the Father ... Spirit ... Jesus Christ"
1 Peter 3:18 "Christ ... God ... Spirit"
1 Peter 4:14 "Christ ... Spirit ... God"
2 Peter 1:21 "God ... Holy Spirit... Lord (Jesus)"
2 Peter 2:1 "God ... Holy Spirit ... Lord (Jesus)"
1 John 4:2 "Spirit ... Jesus ... God"
1 John 4:13, 14 "Spirit ... Father ... Son ... Savior"
1 John 5:7 "Father... Word ... Holy Spirit"
Jude 20, 21 "the Holy Spirit... God... Lord ... Jesus Christ"
Revelation 1:9, 10 "Jesus Christ ... God ... Jesus Christ ... Spirit"
Revelation 3:5-7 "Father ... Spirit ... He that hath the key of David (Jesus)"
Revelation 14:12, 13 "God ... Jesus ... Lord ... Spirit"
Revelation 21:9, 10 "Lamb ... Spirit ... God"
Revelation 22:16-18 "the offspring of David (Jesus) ... Spirit ... God"
2006-11-14 07:12:42 · answer #6 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 2⤋
That makes a lot of sense in clarifying their different roles especially when used in conjunction with Genesis 1; 26 " Let us make man" and Proverbs 8; 22- 31 about the master worker.
edit It just goes to show how people can interpret the Bible so differently. Yes, i beleive Jehovah was speaking to Jesus at the creation of man.
The one thing that bugs me is that some always use John 10;30, but then don't notice John 14; 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
The most important doctrine of Christianity should be the santification of God's name and Jesus' ransom sacrifice so that we could be forgiven, not about whether Jesus and the Holy spirit are equal with the Father.
2006-11-14 04:35:08 · answer #7 · answered by jaguarboy 4 · 2⤊ 5⤋
My Brother,
I Believe in The Trinity. But I do not think Believing in or not Believing in The Trinity is Essential for Salvation.
Minister
2006-11-14 04:35:30 · answer #8 · answered by Minister 4 · 1⤊ 3⤋
Colossians would appear to disagree with you.All Scripture must and does agree with all Scripture, but occasionally you need to search for context.Personally I think words should express ideas, not originate them.
2006-11-14 04:40:22 · answer #9 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 4⤋
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
Yep, not three seperate, but three in ONE, just as Jesus himself tells us. Nice try though.
2006-11-14 04:32:08 · answer #10 · answered by sweetie_baby 6 · 1⤊ 4⤋