Common sense only, please.!?

Question

I am agnostic. There is still a part of me that thinks that there may be a God. What I absolutely cannot accept is that there is a hell. Is there any organized religion that does not believe there is a hell?

Without using any bible scriptures, can anyone explain to me how you can say that God loves us, but then could still condemn us to hell for eternity? I do not want to hear that Jesus will save me, I do not believe that and I never will. What I want is why should I believe in a God?

If anyone can give me a good logical answer why this loving God would send his "children" to hell, I would appreciate it. Please remember that you are talking to a skeptic, but I do want to learn with a open mind.

I know that I am limiting your answers by excluding the bible and I apologize, but I can never accept that book as true. If I see a scripture, I will not even read your answer.

Thank you for responding.

Someone said that he would never punish someone who did not deserve it. What about homosexuals? Why should they go to hell for being the way they are born?

Answer 1

Hi Gorgeous,

You just did a straw man argument. Hell is a Christian theological concept. In fact, it is generally a new testament concept. It is impossible to discuss it without referring to how it came to be defined. I’ll do my best to minimize any references and use reason and common sense.

A common religious and cultural concept is “punishment” for bad people. I think it is a just concept. Buddha say, if you are bad, you will have bad karma in your next life. Bad Karma is hell. The Greek Gods had Hades, in the underworld.

Or, Jesus says, Good = love God (faith) and love others as yourself (action). “ON THESE 2 COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS”. (Read Matt 22:34-40). So Ted says, if you read something that contradicts this, then check your premises, you will find one is wrong. Everything in the bible has to (it must) logically align with this statement. So, what is the interpretation basis to align with this one statement? That’s a longer answer, and not part of your question.

However, what is the GOOD that will be the basis of judgment? Most people say, “got to have faith”. What is faith? They then start prescribing rules and beliefs. Now can you prove that these rules and beliefs 100% align with loving God? Not usually. There are many main religions, and then 100’s of sects. Carl Jung says, “The shoe that fits one person, pinches another.” So I also am skeptical.

Now do not forget this one dynamic of human nature that exists. A religion (versus personal belief in God), as any and all organizations, always tries to grow and sustain itself. It is pure human nature, in fact, it is good, for without it there would not be progress. As for all human organizations, belief is based on some dogma or “Vision Statement”, loyalty to the organization, and growth thru product sales (corporations) or people or faith (religion). In a sense, it is survival of the fittest. The religion with the best message and the one that meets the most human needs, or aligns with an inspiring spiritual message the best, wins. So they are all competing and believe they are right. But they do say a lot of different things. From the outside, this does not sound spiritual. From the inside, it can be very spiritual. Religion and church is a choice, and can be a very satisfying choice, if it meets your needs.

Back to what Jesus, is said to have said, [paraphrased]: to be good, to pass His judgement, “feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, shelter the stranger in need, clothe those who need it, help the sick, and visit those in prison.” (Matt 25:35-36). How else can it be known that you have loved others as you love yourself? It is your actions. Think about it, there is not one single word on belief, just actions. This aligns with love others as yourself. This is a good statement.

Do not forget, that in a solely materialist universe, which is cause and effect only, this leads to nihilism on a grand scale. That is why philosophy and politics and much more is so nihilistic today. If we are random quirks of nature, then in the grand scheme of nature, neither purpose, nor the sanctity of life can be justified. This has and will have increasingly terrible implications to civilization. Inherently, most people are not nihilistic, they are good people, with or without religion. But if you are brilliant person without a conscience, heaven help us.

Read the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30). If you do not work to reach your human potential, and thus contribute your potential to mankind, then “cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness”. This seems to align with loving others as yourself, and proving it by action, and being judged specifically on this aspect of your life. What is the outer darkness? It is not explained.

To me it seems that religions try to make having faith the critical issue, in their theology. God simply seems to say, not only to be good, but “to do good”. When He judges, it is not on a personal choice basis, it is what you do. That is huge difference compared to what everyone seems to hear. That also aligns with Karma, if you do bad, you will have bad Karma. If you do good, you have better Karma. [I am not trying to justify Buddhism.]

Now back to your premises:

Hell is a theological concept, mostly first “alluded” to in the New Testament. Jesus spoke by “allegory and parables” to make himself more easily understood. When he says, “into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil”, or “into the outer darkness”, or whatever, then, people have tried to define what hell is. However, in context, he was not trying to be specific, just visual. No one has been there and come back, so it is all faith and man made definitions. Maybe your spirit just dies out. It is ok to be skeptical on this.

Religion is one of those things that say it is faith based and then speaks as if matters of faith are facts. But, again, that is human nature. Once you have a perception, then it is real to you, though may not be to others. That’s the way I see it. It’s both wrong and right. Wrong to others and right to the believer. Isn’t life complex? Either the believer needs to change their perspective to the non-believer, so they can have a rational dialogue, or the non-believer needs to change their perspective to the believer, so they can have a rational dialogue. If each stays in their own perspective, it is an irrational dialogue. Kind of explains Y!A, doesn’t it?

So what can be said. Let’s be general and thus more accurate.
God says He loves you. The highest principle, He wants you to love him and others as yourself. It is each of our choices, with free will, to do this. Logically speaking, common sense, if you do not love others, then what. A just parent is a loving parent. An unjust parent is cruel. In that sense, God is the supreme loving Darwinist, isn’t he. Let’s say you have many children. You love them all. However, if one turns out bad, you may love them, but you will accept, even support consequences to them, even while you still love them. God has to do, what many, many loving parents have had to do. There is perfect alignment with bad people get punished, and being just and loving. However, the problem is that religion then get too prescriptive what bad means. Jesus, prevented the mob from stoning a lady in direct opposition of the dogma of the religion he believed in. The Bible is not highly prescriptive, it is descriptive of what actually happens to people and society, with and without faith. It is very, very situational.

If you do not love Him (this leads to societal nihilism which is bad), or if you treat others oppressively, or are purely selfish, then, logically, what should happen? Let’s say you are a good and loving parent, that allows your children to grow and be independent, and you have a child who is a sociopathic serial killer, and always will be a sociopath, then what do you do as a good and loving parent? Allow evil to exist? The thought of allowing evil to exist, like the Nazi, now and forever, bothers me, and makes no sense. Talk about Hitler being emboldened to do worse in his afterlife. Thus, by common sense, consequences are needed. Justice must exist. I hope Hitler is dead forever, or whatever.

The issue of your question, I think, is, who decides. Religious people are bad deciders. Just like the mob that wanted to stone the lady, or burned people at the stake. If you do the best you can, with what you have to work with, can you do more? In what seem to be foundational statements above, that all other statements need to align with, then yes, do your best. Do not go to church and pray when your neighbor needs a helping hand. Do go to church if this recharges your batteries. Your choices, your actions, judgment from people is purely wrong…. Unless you are in leadership and accept a position with certain responsibilities.

If someone says, if you do not say this prayer and believe this, then you will go to hell, and I’m concerned about your soul, then will you go to hell? If you do not go to church, you will go to hell? If you are a suicide bomber, you go to heaven? Allah said destroy the Satan empire the USA? God brought AIDS to homosexuals as judgment? If you drink, or smoke, you are going to hell? Or, why this loving God would send his "children" to hell?

In all these statements, who said this? A person or God? Do they align with the 2 great laws? Love God and Love others? No they do not. These are man-made religious statements, not, spiritual statements.

So, you can see, one of your question is no different than these other statements, and I’m skeptical of it and do not believe it is true as stated. I believe justice will exist, but cannot prove what justice will be. I believe good exists, but, will get 100 definitions, from 100 people. Thus, I believe what I have wrote. You may believe different. However, I think I am headed in the right direction.

If you change the questions from religious questions, to a spiritual questions, then maybe they can be answered. All religious questions carry a lot of assumptions.

Your friend,
Ted

Answer 2

Please read everything...

One day, students in one of Albert Einstein's classes were saying they had decided there was no God. Einstein asked then how much of all the knowledge in the world they had among themselves collectively, as a class. The students discussed it for a while and decided they had 5% of all human Knowledge among themselves. Einstein thought their estimate was a little generous, but he replied: "is it possible God exists in the 95% you don't know?"

not to insult you though your question is like saying how can I do my physics problem without using math, it just doesn't work theoreticly, hypatheticly, or even philisophicly. On one hand you want to understand truth and on the other your are denying the very existence of truth.

Why would God send people to hell isn't a proper question for God gave humanity the right to choose, and just as you have used your right to not believe in God you can be shure that many others have also used their right to choose.

If I was a pilot in an plane and said that there was a fire in back of the plane and it was working it's way toward the front and you all have a parashute under your seat, it would be your choice to put on your parashute and jump out, just as it would be your right to dismiss out of disbelief what the pilot had said.
You now have the same choice to make in the real world, for God has made a way ie. provision for your escape out of hell even if you don't believe it to be true. Please reconsider your possition in life because what you don't know is keeping you from what you from what you can know, because you don't want to know. God loves you, aways has, always does and always will, no matter what you have chosen to believe. J.C.E

Answer 3

Well, to think/know of GOD as our father, puts us as his children. Being children we need discipline, being sent to our room without supper type stuff (tempted to say raising children "old school" style)
OK, sorry, what I mean is when a child is good the parents treat them accordingly.
But when we are bad - not to think we will be punished is unfair, and wrong.
I'd imagine GOD would not hold back deserved praise or punishment.
I also think GOD would be a strict parent, not a touchy-feelly "friend" type of parent.
Some children do amazingly bad things and the punishment matches the crime. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." - comes to mind. Where is Hitler? Well either Heaven or Hell - this is actually not debateable as humans would like with our tiny view of everything, GOD being GOD has a clear understanding of his plan and what type of praise or punishment to mete out to us.
_____________________________
"What I want is why should I believe in a God?" -- Oh, I can't help with - I no, sorry, I can't think of why you should do anything... just be the best you - you can be. GOD will help anytime you need it. GOD is just fine with you being you as you are - don't change for humans apperances/perceptions.

Answer 4

Trust is hard to find in this world, That is all God is asking of any of His children, trust. without it, there can be no faith. In order for one to believe the bible, one must trust and put faith in that God exists, He is who He says He is once you understand that, you will begin to understand His son, Jesus.

God is like a parent to those who believe in Him, He is a disciplinarian, but also a teacher, a friend, and father. It is a relationship that is personal to each person, and I understand that what God is to me, may not be who He is to the next person.
It is through a desire of the heart that draws one nearer to God... He wants to save all of us since we are His creation, but He also knows that isn't going to happen.
Hell is a place He created for evil.
There are many religions that do not believe in hell. or Jesus for that matter, but does that make them the right ones to follow?

God doesn't condemn us all to hell, that is something that we are scared into believing.(this knowledge came by studying the bible) God only condemns those who reject Him. we are given a choice and if we openly deny Him, we give Him no choice. God cannot reside where there is no love, and where He is not accepted.
This may be a hard pill for you to swallow, God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. He wants all to live with Him. He wants a fellowship with all of us, like He did Adam and Eve.

One cannot get to know God without studying His word. It is a guide that He left for us, so that we can learn His ways, and learn who He is. If we negate that part of Him, it is like us walking around without a limb. We are not whole... we can get by, but how much more can we become when we have the missing limb!
Have you ever written a paper, poetry based on your feelings of something? Should your teacher or readers neglect to read it because it is a part of you? It is a way to help others relate to you and your understanding of things? Should the teacher neglect to give you a grade because they refuse to read your feelings or your way of understanding things?
your refusal will condemn you not God.
Anyone's will...

Answer 5

It is difficult to think outside the box with limiting terms - terms that have been steeped in connotation for centuries - like God and Hell. I think what is called for is a personal definition of these terms and a reimagining, if you will.

For example: I think that god exists, but I don't think its some person up there decreeing how we live and judging our actions. For me, God is defined as the very energy that powers this existence. If god is an ocean, then we are each individual glasses of God, in my opinon. What is your definition of God?

If one must define god as a person, how about the doting grandfather who just loves us and is interested in everything we do and never thinks harshly of us, no matter what we do - cause we are just kids playing a game in "school" and are no more in danger than our own kids playing dolls or soldiers.

I think that Hell exists, but I think it is our own personal hell on earth and nothing more. I have seen it - people trapped in their own grief or doubt and unable to really live life. That to me is hell. I think that if you still feel that way when you die, you can be blinded to everything else, including the way "home" - and can therefore stay here on earth in spirit berating and hating yourself (until you can stop longe enough to "see the light" and the way home).

I believe in prayer and that god answers prayers, but I don't think that god is listening only when I am on bended knee or say "hi god, i am praying now". I think what we think god sends - and what we think about most is what is sent quickest. If we are constantly thinking about lack, it just seems like the course is too hard for us and they send more. If we dwell upon love and prosperity, that is what comes our way. We get what we expect and thoughts become things - that's prayer.

So we can share the terms - they are not solely defined by any or all of the religions. They are open to interpretation and you, as an agnostic, are free to interpret them in any way you choose. Feel the power and freedom of a truly empowering religion.

Peace!

Answer 6

God made us to love Him. He gave the angles and humans free wills so we would not love Him because we were programed that way, God wants us to choose Him of our own free will.

When one is given a choice, than there must be two out comes.
If we love God (then we will do His will) and He will take us to Heaven for eternity to be with Him.
If we hate God (by disobeying Him) then we will be sent to Hell to spend eternity there with Satan (who told us the lies about God).

As God loves us, He has told us what will happen to us after this life, how we are to live, how to get to know God and love Him.
He even paid the price for our salvation (through Jesus' death and resurrection) all we have to do is accept it and follow God's instruction book.

Answer 7

It's continuously been a undeniable fact that there are extra idiots than intelligent humans. Back earlier than schooling was once the accountability of a 3rd get together I believe there was once extra typical feel on the grounds that youngsters would handiest be trained from their elders who realize larger, however at the moment typical feel and logical pondering isn't taught anymore and is undoubtedly no longer influenced among the devout. Practicing Shaman... quantum physics rocks.

Answer 8

I'm going to give this one a try...I don't have all the answers either. I believe in God, but I do not consider myself a Christian because I think the bible is not the true word of God. I think it has some great stories, but any educated person can see it if fiction, altered by men to suit their needs. Men and women are sinners by nature, so I can't give that book any consideration whatsoever. I think people love to quote it because it's popular belief that is rarely challenged and it's easier to go by it than think for yourself. I don't believe in hell either, for reasons you mentioned. God loves us all, he forgives us all. I think your search for organized religion is to meet a need to belong to something, join a bookclub. I don't think our creator really cares what we do on sunday, we should do the right thing everyday.

Answer 9

Look at it this way:
Without Hell, there would be no justice in the universe. Don't you like it when criminals are locked away for good, kept from harming others? Same goes for Hell. Do you want Hitler, or Stalin, or some other evil people to make it to Heaven with you? Would that be fair?

Answer 10

God is the judge of all the earth. We do not refuse to believe in our judges because they sentence a child molester to life in jail rather we are glad when the evil doers are punished. You would not want someone who killed or raped someone you love to escape punishment. And so we should not want God to be an unjust God. Remember He will judge righteously. He will never punish anyone who does not deserve it.

Answer 11

Try Buddhism. I like Buddhism for the simply reason the Buddha looks like a woman. To Buddhists, this life we are leading is simply one of a chain of lives, so there's no need for a lot of punishment. The Christian bible is less of a guide than a history of taking power from the pagans. I was brought up a Christian and found it unsatisfactory for that reason.