I would like opinions here from Border Collie breeders as to what is acceptable dog status for breeding...?

Question

I have done tons of research on this over the years & have considered breeding, but at this time I am still educating myself. Some day, I would like to breed, when I can devote the proper time to do so. Most people say that if your dog isn't "conformation show quality" that you should not breed. Yet some organizations feel "showing" BC's & having that be a requirement to improve the breed will only cause the deterioration of what this breed is all about--being a working dog. Do you think it acceptable to breed with the standards of Agility & Obedience competition & titles achieved (sports this breed excels in), or should show quality be a must anyway? Maybe a little of both?

I am prepared to do all that will be necessary, to produce a desirable litter including properly titled sire/dam & being an available resource of support to those who take pups from litters produced, but I wonder how other BC breeders feel about the conformation ring? Is it needed?

Thanx for the advice/opinions thus far. I am always searching for information on the ethics for breeding, as I do not take it lightly. I intend to be a responsible breeder (part of the reason I'm not doing it at this time) and will be sure that the dogs are properly health certified and screened for all possible defects. I will breed with love of the breed in mind, and wouldn't choose to breed one that didn't meet up to proper standards and intend to only breed with a dog that excels in the ring. I will to maintain communications with all puppy owners, fully check out potential interested families, require a home visit & proper references, offer a resource of help if they need, as well as willing to take any puppy back for any reason if need be.

I want to be fully prepared for the responsibility of breeding and assure that the puppies go to good homes or are returned to me if it doesn't work out (tho I hope proper screening will reduce this).

I have the financial resources to properly care for a litter.

I have the desire to keep any puppies that are not placed into a proper home.

I and my whole family, are commited to giving the proper attention and training for any litters produced.

MY interested families in puppies from a litter WILL be required to sign contracts of limited registration as well as returning any puppy or dog (regardless of age) that they are unable to keep any longer.

I have resources here that I will use to find suitable and proper homes and WILL NOT allow this breed to go to just any home.

I KNOW this is a breed NOT FOR EVERYONE.

I would like to know, GitEmGang, what your personal QUALIFICATIONS are in this area, as you seem to just run amuck with criticism in Answers, but don't seem to be able to back up ANYTHING YOU SAY. How long have your been breeding Border Collies then? How many dog shows have you entered and titled in?

Answer 1

If your dog isn't of sound show quality, meaning free of genetic defects and an outstanding specimen of the breed, then that dog shouldn't be bred. Period. The only exception is if you have a dog that can improve a certain part of a certain flaw. Speak directly with some reputable BC breeders and see what they say. Speak directly with the AKC national BC breed club and see what their code of ethics says. You can have a agility champion, but if he has bad hips, bad elbows, and other issues, then it's a terrible idea to breed.

See, a mixed breed can excel at agility and obedience. Are we supposed to breed them all willy nilly as well? To me, people who yell about confirmation vs. agility & obedience have non-standard dogs and they want an excuse to breed them. If it were one person who felt like this and they were selling their dogs only to farms, then so be it. More power to them. But when you get groups of people together breeding sub-standard dogs who happen to be very obedience and agility driven and they breed their dogs to sell as pets, then you have an unethical breeder, in my book. However, if they have a sound dog, as proven by numerous tests, and can act as a responsible breeder, then I would have less of a problem with it.

Greyhounds are a great example of selective breeding. Because they needed sound dogs to race, even if they aren't AKC standard, hip problems RARELY exist for these dogs. The dogs simply can't be competitive if they have them. If a similar program were developed for herding and working breeds, of course without all the other issues involved with Greyhound tracks, it would certainly be something to ponder.

But remember, this is not a BC website. There are probably numerous yahoo groups devoted to BCs and their breeding. Try visiting some of them. This site is unfortunately filled with people who think that any AKC or CKC dog should be bred until she dies in childbirth and that no dog should ever be fixed. Not exactly the best people to turn to for breeding advice.

To sum up, if a person has a sound dog that excels at something, and that person can meet and exceed all the ethical breeding requirements, then I'd have much less of a problem with them breeding. But if they can't, then they shouldn't convince themselves that the 'ethical breeding' standards and guidelines are unfair.

Good luck to you. I'm glad to see that you are thinking long and hard about this. : )

Answer 2

I am not a BC breeder but after reading some of the comments by other non-BC people I decided to weigh in.

Definitely talk to BC folks and get their opinion of your dogs, but in my opinion, show quality is not a "must" when breeding dogs. Soundness and meeting the breed's standard is.

A border collie that excels at agility is performing a function close to the dog's original purpose (running, turning, weaving, etc off leash under voice or hand command) and that is certainly grounds to consider breeding the dog.

Originally, conformation was supposed to reflect the purpose of a breed. Ideally, a dog that is a conformation champion should reflect the original purpose of the breed and be able to perform it. Removing a dog from the gene pool because even though he excels at the job he was designed to do, he doesn't "show" well is not in the best interests of the breed.

To refute anyone that believes a dog must be a conformation champion, let me introduce my dog's granddam (grandmother). She has a VCD1 (an AKC title combining an obedience title, two agility titles, and a tracking title) an advanced obedience title, a hunting title, a flyball champion title and she is a licensed therapy dog. She meets the breed standard but hated the show ring. She also has every possible health clearance under the sun.

She had one litter of pups. Those now-adult pups have titles including advanced obedience, rally obedience, advanced agility, hunt titles and flyball, plus therapy certification, and all have the AKC canine good citizen awards. There are also a couple of breed champions.

To say, as some others have, that she should not have been bred because she is not a show dog is ridiculous and flys in the face of the true purpose of breeding: TO IMPROVE THE BREED.


Enjoy your dogs. Run clean, run fast :)

Answer 3

There are many BC breeders that did not want the breed to become AKC recognized. AKC and the show ring has not been good for some breeds. Some breeds have changed when you get people who are breeding/showing without the dogs purpose in mind. The BC is also very different in other countries, with the English/Scottish/Irish lines being much more 'sane', although still good workers. That don't HAVE to be so hyper that they don't even make decent pets.

If you are breeding for performance, structure should still be a consideration, the dog needs to be able to work without breaking down. I would suggest reading K9 Structure and Terminology by Brown, a truly wonderful read for anyone interested in structure.



I see nothing wrong with breeding for performance, or for healthy pets for that matter.


Ragapple - That may be true depending on the venue and area, but in my area the ASFA trials are filled with the same dogs that are in the show ring. True, the show bred are not going to be as fast as most race bred (generally), but there are many ASFA FCH that also have their bench CH.

Answer 4

Although I don't breed Border Collies, I do breed Basset Hounds, which have a performance (field/hunting) side and a conformation side.

It is my opinion that a breeder should prove their dog in either the conformation ring or the field (field trials, hunt tests etc.) (or in the case of Border Collies, in herding tests). The ideal would be to have dogs that are successful in both areas. Many people on the west coast are doing just that, we have more and more dual Champions in the breed. Unfortunately, there are no field events near me, or I would be trying my guys in the field.
As a breeder, although I like to compete in obedience, agility, rally etc. I don't take those into consideration when breeding. The reason for this is that almost any dog can be successful in these venues if properly trained, whereas field and conformation test what the dog was born with and can pass on. You cannot "train" hunting instinct or good conformation.

The trick with conformation is to thoroughly understand the standard and the purpose of the breed, and to have a good knowledge of proper structure and CORRECT breed type (not exaggeration). It is not conformation per se that harms a breed, it is breeders who concentrate on the frills and ignore the essentials that make the dog efficient in it's job. The judge can only put up what we show to them. And we must select the best dogs for breeding, not just go to the big winner.

The trick with field and herding breeding is not to focus on extremes of performance. In some breeds, the top winning field dogs are actually impractical for daily hunting. Always remember what is correct for YOUR breed. Don't forget what makes your breed unique. You may find a spectacular herding mutt, but it's not a border collie.

If you want to focus on conformation, always keep the breed's purpose in mind. Never breed a dog that you couldn't envision out herding sheep.

If you want to focus on herding, always keep the breed standard in mind. Don't breed dogs that are structurally deficient, or don't look like border collies.

Answer 5

CWA all the way Hugh, Get-em-gang? The fact remains that show quality can sometime mean hopeless (or decidedly inferior) at the performance venues that the breed was developed for! While I don't think type should be entirely tossed out I DON"T think conformation success is a necessity for a preformace dog.

Now I'm not hugly familur with the BC idea but I think I know the answer since some breeders abrcted to getting them in the show ring at all!

Answer 6

Have you checked out www.bordercollie.org ? This site is a mountain of information about border collies, their history and well written information about breeding can be found. This site also lists many other sites that you can get information about Border Collies and breeding and philosophies.

I would highly suggest that you contact someone from the ABCS who does breeding and open discussion with them to help you answer your question.

As for how important is other titling on your dog prior to breeding, that really depends on the market you wish to sell to. You want the dog to be titled in venues that your target buying market is interested in.

Answer 7

Just want to note that I have a Border Collie just as a pet...... and I would now recommend to anyone who is looking for a pet to reconsider getting a BC unless they have a lot of room and a lot of time to devote to the dog's well-being. I love my BC to the ends of the earth....... but he doesn't get the excercise he needs and I don't have time to devote to training him thoroughly..... I do my best and he seems happy enough but I know he longs to herd and learn new things so I feel he is being neglected. He is such a good dog and so very smart...... I hope someday we can move to the country and buy him a little herd of goats or something!

Answer 8

Melon,
Good luck in your endeavor. And I just had to write and give you a thumbs up on you GetEmGang comment. You hit that right on the head. His answers are all crap. I think that is a sign of his insecurity and immaturity.

Answer 9

There are 2 reasons for breeding dogs. Either breed for show lines or breed for working lines. It occurs in MANY breeds. I have a dobie from show lines, and she looks quite different than my friend's which comes from working lines. If you are going to breed for working lines, get as many titles as you can to ensure that you are breeding a sound working dog.

Answer 10

i would recommend visiting www.bodercollietrustgb.com they may get some help from their forum!