The Three Different Jesuses?

Question

Establishing the time of the “Jewish Jesus”:

The reference to Jesus in the Talmud is by the title: “Yeshu Ha-Notzri,” but according to Jewish chronology, he lived at the time when Joshua Ben Perakhyah led the Sanhedrin1 and, therefore, predated Jesus according to Christian chronology by almost 200 years.

- Rejection of the “Virgin Birth.” Judaism considers Jesus a bastard. The Talmud records a story:

The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a bastard.

Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a “niddah” (a child conceived during a woman’s menstrual period).

Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a bastard and a son of a niddah.

“They said, ‘What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?’

He replied, “I will prove it concerning him.”

He went to the lad’s mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.

“He said to her, ‘My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.’ (eternal life). She said to him, ‘Swear it to me.’

“Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, ‘What is the status of your son?’

She replied, ‘When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.’

Consequently the child was both a bastard and the son of a niddah.

“It was declared, ‘..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to Rabbi Akiba…”2

Now there are numerous clear indications in other places of the Talmud3 to conclude that the preceding Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the “bastard boy” who “uncovered his head” and was conceived in the “filth of menstruation”). The boy’s adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).

* TEACHINGS:

He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship.4

The Talmud also says that Jesus was in Egypt in early manhood. Rabbi Joshua b. Perakhyah is said to have fled with his pupil Jesus to Alexandria in order to escape the persecutions of the Jewish king Yannai (103-76 B.C.). On their return Jesus made a remark on the not faultless beauty of their hostess, whereupon Rabbi Perakhyah ex-communicated him. When Jesus approached him again, and was not received, he set up a brick for his god, and led all Israel into apostasy.5


Furthermore, according to the Talmud, the source of his miracles was the black magic and witchcraft, which he had learnt in his sojourn in Egypt.6

* DEATH:

Maintains that Jesus was not crucified but was hung and stoned to death:

“It is taught that on the eve of Passover, Jesus7 was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry… He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone.”8

(II) JESUS IN CHRISTIANITY

Very well known to all; the brief points are:

* LIFE:

- Jesus was the “third of the three;” the god made flesh. Christians believe God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: “I and the Father are one”9

- Despite the fact the Jesus was God “made flesh”, the Christians cut queer capers to show that he was at the same time a descendant of David.10

* TEACHINGS:

- Abrogated the whole Torah Law: throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicted the Torah and stated that its commandments were no longer applicable.11

* DEATH:

- Was crucified to death.

(III) JESUS IN ISLAM

* LIFE:

- Belief in the virgin birth.12

- The Qur’an does noy say that Jesus was the “Messiah” in the prevalent Judeo-Christian sense. It refers to Jesus as the “Masih” simply because he was more commonly known by this title among the addressees of the Qur’an.

It is precisely the same as in some developing countries, Arnold Schwarzenegger is better known, among the less educated, by the title TERMINATOR and thus your ignorant addressees are supposed to understand you better if you had referred to him by the same title.

- The Qur’an does not use the term “word” (”kalima”) for Jesus in the sense of Logos of the Gospel of John.

The Qur’an says: «Isa son of Maryam is only a messenger of Allah and His word which He communicated to Maryam and a spirit from Him.»13

Here, the “word communicated to Mary” means that God sent His word (i.e., order) to the womb of Mary to conceive a child without the presence of a sperm. This is the sense in which the Qur’an refers to Jesus as “His word which He communicated to Maryam.”

- The Qur’an does not use the term “spirit” (”R󨦣8221;) for Jesus in the Christian sense of the Holy Spirit. The Qur’anic usage simply means that Jesus was a soul sent from God (as all of us, according to the Qur’an, are.)

* TEACHINGS:

Revival of the Torah law14, emancipating his people from the cumbersome Rabbinic law and interpreting the Torah “Law” in light of the “Wisdom” of his prophetic sayings (which the Qur’an calls Inj.15

* DEATH:

- Did not die on the cross:

The Jews intended to crucify Jesus, and «ils ont cru l’avoir fait»16 (”it appeared to them as such.”)

Though “it appeared to them [i.e., to the Jews] as such [i.e., as if they were successful in crucifying Jesus],” yet this was not so in reality.17

God “took him up to Himself” (”rafa`ahu,” 4:158, Pickthal)

The Qur’an does not say as to when did the ascension of Jesus take place.

Answer 1

And your question is?????
In the eyes of an historian, none of the references you refer to is even valid. Revealed truth -- i.e., truth that one religion holds is true, but not provable, is not a source of value, it is a source of faith only. Who cares what was written 2000 years ago as historical proof. It changes nothing for today, and is of little value except as a curiosity or as part of the history of that religion. It has nothing to do with what really happened.

From the point of view of a pantheist (one who believes god is in everything and is everywhere, and is anything) such events as ascension, supernatural miracles and the like are narrow, and outside the realm of experience -- no one has ever returned from being dead and buried. Few educated, thinking people believe any revealed truth document. And few christians believe in the literal translation of the bible, or any other revealed truth document.

Three different jesuses? three different writings, years apart. There are many more. Did you know there was a gospel acording to st. Philip??? Heck, we don't really understand everything that happened in the Kennedy assination, which was only 50 years ago. Writings about jesus were as long as 130 years after his death....... at this, why wouldn't they all be different????? and so what???? What would that change???? That there would be a 200 year difference according to your calculations is immaterial -- different areas counted years differently, for one thing, and with translations, retranslation, errors and the like, it would be amazing if everything ever matched up......

Answer 2

This is total garbage. Judaism does not recognize Jesus as anything but a minor prophet. There are obscure writings that have been declared bogus in every religion. Stop trying to stir up trouble.

Answer 3

I do not believe in the Trinity myself but if someone wants to believe in the Trinity than let them. The HITAN MOVEMENT encourages all to search a find a GOD that suites them, there is more than one GOD out there and ways to worship there are many christian groups that do not worship in the trinity Jehovah Witnesses True Jesus Church Unitarians Universalist Oneness Pentecostals just some of them Judaism and Islam also do not accept the Trinity idea

Answer 4

Are you Jewish? That quote from the Talmud does not surprise but I am jewish and I knew Jesus was a sinner.

Answer 5

The Jewish Jesus -

On your reference to the following quote: "Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, ‘What is the status of your son?’"

Wouldn't a Rabbi taking an oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart be considered a liar?

Proverbs 14:5 says: A faithful witness is one that will not lie, but a false witness launches forth mere lies. (So would that Rabbi be considered "a false witness"?)

Leviticus 19:11 - “‘You people must not steal, and you must not deceive, and you must not deal falsely anyone with his associate." (Wouldn't that Rabbi be violating the law of God in being deceptive?)

Since God himself hates liars, what position does that put the Rabbi in? And if the Rabbi lied to the woman, can it be said without a doubt that he told the truth in the telling of his account?

Concerning whether Jesus practiced black magic - since black magic consists of spells and curses to invoke evil spirits and bring harm to one's enemies, isn't it logical to conclude that Jesus did not practice black magic since the miracles he performed were to the benefit of people, not their detriment? His miracles never caused harm to people, even his enemies.

Jesus' death was at the hands of the Roman governor and the historic record shows that Jesus was put to death on a torture stake. Isn't it logical that the Romans, therefore, would know how they put him to death?

The Christian Jesus

Though you correctly write what the majority of those claiming to be Christians have been taught that Christ and God are one in the same through the trinity doctrine (couldn't this be considered a "doctrine of men" since nowhere in the Bible is the word "trinity" found nor does it anywhere state that God, Jesus and the holy spirit are three gods in one?), there are numerous other scriptures which show that Jesus did not consider himself equal with God. (Philippians 2:5,6 - Jesus "gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."; Matthew 24:36 - if Jesus were equal with God, he would know what God knows.)

Even though the Bible shows Jesus as a son of Joseph, he would still be in the line of David without Joseph's lineage since Mary herself was of the tribe of Judah and thus a descendant of David.

Regarding the law, the purpose of the law given to the nation of Israel was to protect and guide the nation so that they would be ready to accept the Messiah when he arrived. The sacrifices of the law reminded the Israelites that they were sinners who needed a Savior. The law of the Christ that replaced the Mosaic law is based on love. The ten commandments are basically all covered under the law of love. If you love someone, you won't murder them, you won't steal from them, you won't commit adultery with their spouses or covet their things, you won't bear false witness against them, etc.

The Islam Jesus

Does the Quran specifically state that Jesus was referred to as the 'Masih' "simply because he was more commonly known by this title among the addressees of the Quran" or was that the thoughts of someone other than the writer who interpretted it that way?

Jesus most certainly was a messenger of God. He told Governor Pilate that he came into the world to "bear witness to the truth" which is the revelation of God's eternal purposes. He proclaimed and bore witness about God's future Kingdom that would put an end to all other governments and kingdoms. He made God's name known to his followers not just by using it, but by revealing the person behind the name - his purposes, activities and qualities. He also made clear to them what their role was to be in the outworking of God's purposes.

Doesn't it stand to reason that there is something very special about Jesus if he was born to a virgin? Were there any other prophets in the Quran or the Bible born to a virgin? Consider Isaiah 7:14 of the Hebrew scriptures: "Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immanuel." (Note that a maiden would be a virgin and Islam apparently supports this idea). Additionally, if Jesus were not the son of God, as he claimed to be, he would be lying. And if he were lying he would not have God's favor nor would God use him as a prophet. Muhammed, however, believed him to be a prophet, right?

Jesus' teachings did emancipate the Jews from the Rabbinic law.

Correct that Jesus didn't die on a cross ... it was a torture stake or pole - no cross. The Greek word used was stauros. According to The Imperial Bible-Dictionary: "The Greek word for cross, [stauros], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground ... Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have originally been an upright pole." The Bible also uses the word xylon to identify the device used. A Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott, defines this as meaning: “Wood cut and ready for use, firewood, timber, etc. . . . piece of wood, log, beam, post . . . cudgel, club . . . stake on which criminals were impaled . . . of live wood, tree.”

Regarding his death, as the Messiah, it was necessary for him to die for the prophecies to be fulfilled. Without the sacrificial death, the ransom would not be paid and mankind would have no means for salvation. Further, Jesus could not have entered heaven to be with God without having first died since "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom" (1 Cor. 15:15).

Just my thoughts -- Christianity (based on the teachings of the Bible and not corrupted by unscriptural teachings of men) is the most reasonable and logical to me.

Answer 6

Interesting. What website did you get this from? And what is your question?

Answer 7

It should be spelled ....Jesus'