I've heard of a couple of internal styles of kung fu, but what are the main differences? (see details)?

Question

Ok, I have been doing some research into internal styles of kung fu, more than just Tai Chi/taiji....and I think I kind of know what the deal is with Tai Chi (you do the form, and if you are lucky you find someone who knows push hands and how to make the form useful)...

But, what about the other three or so...?

Like Bagua Zhang? And just what *is* the difference between Hsing I Ch'uan and I Ch'uan? And what on earth is this Lui He Ba Fa stuff....?

Any *positive* information on the subject would be nice. Yes, I know it isn't hardcore, "Rickson by drive-by arm-bar while spooning a *bus*" and all that, ok? I get it that it isn't "teh almighty UFC", all right?

So can I just get some useful info and clear up some confusion please? In particular, I am wondering, since people practice Tai Chi on their own sometimes, how useful it would be to try that with the other internal styles? & with I Ch'uan in particular, what else do you need to know with it?

Thanks for your time!

Hello...I am liking these answers so far....and I am sorry if I caused any offense here, it's just, you know, any more these days if you ask a question about a non-sport martial art, you draw the jiu-jitsu drones like they're flies or something...and I didn't want to have to deal with a dozen non-answers telling me "well judo/jiu-jitsu is more practical", because well, I know that...and that wasn't the Question I was asking, was it? :P

But yeah, I am sorry if I came across as ranty or paranoid, I just did *not* want the trolls to be in my face and all....

Good stuff so far though, keep it up, I am digging the links here. Thanks! :)

Answer 1

well, my primary art is taijiquan, yang style, and since i practice taiji, i also study shuai jiao, chinese grappling since taiji is about 80% shuai jiao. i also study hsing-i, i-chuan, and qigong. i will soon began learning ba-gua.

taiji forms allow you to learn body mechanics, and yes, nowadays you do have to be lucky to find an instructor that practices and teaches taijiquan as a martial art and not as a health fad(which isn't a bad thing either). someone who can show you the true origins of taiji and who is skilled in two person taiji forms and push hands, but i really do recommend anyone who's thinking of taiji as a martial art to take shuai jiao, it will really help you better understand the mechanics of taijiquan.

for i-chuan, here is what my sigung had to say on the subject in an interview with Inside Kung Fu: http://www.guangpingyang.org/newsletters/2001/04-01/i_chuan.htm

most internal styles can trace their roots back to taijiquan. it is a basis for moves from many forms of kung fu...

hsing-i, and taiji, ba-gua and qigong can all be practiced solitary. once you learn the movements in the forms you can practice them anytime anywhere with anyone, even all alone... if you read the article by master look above, he explains what you need to know about i-chuan and what you need to practice it. it's a great article with an illustration of master look doing the standing 8 postures form of i-chuan at the bottom of the article. you can follow the diagrams and start practicing them at home right now..

the i-chuan standing 8 form is a great internal exercise, that i particularly enjoy, and that my husband finds very useful. he's an external martial artist, actually a mma instructor, one of those "Rickson by drive-by arm-bar while spooning a *bus*" and all that," but he's not at all close minded to the effectiveness of internal martial arts. in fact he empraces it.. which i think would help many external martial artists. he finds that before a fight if you learn to balance you chi and focus your breathing and energy it makes your external martial art that much more effective.

hope that helps, if you have any other questions please feel free to contact me, i love sharing what i've learned...

~*good luck*~

Answer 2

Whether it is "hardcore" or not depends on the amount of time you spend training. Generally, tai chi is considered more internal, but the advanced stages, from what I understand, can actually be pretty hardcore depending on where you learn it.
The sad thing is that Kung Fu has deteriorated into mostly a demonstration form of art. If you want good information on Shaolin Kung Fu, you should check out "The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu" by Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. He offers pretty good information. From my personal experience, I've noticed that alot of the Kung Fu schools house alot of phonies and creepy chinese men claiming to be masters that really just want your money. The real hardcore kung fu is practised by few these days and you wont find many of these people in America. There are some underground organizations in California.

Answer 3

hello Bradley,
You already got some informative answers. Hope to contribute some more for you. Tai chi, Bagua and Xing Yi are regarded as belonging all to the internal family; Neijia. Each of these internal styles have similar chi cultivation and fighting techniques. They practice them differently though and so do their philosophical approaches for accomplishing goals. Xing Yi focuses on the direct approach, on being aggressive and concentrated on developing yang power. Tai chi emphasizes softness and attaining goals in an indirect way. It's focus is mainly on developing yin power. Bagua is based on the idea of being able to smoothly and appropriately change from one situation to another. The power used flows between yin and yang, but is primarily yang. All the internal martial arts have martial, health and meditative aspects. A teacher that can teach the complete system is rare though. Substantial information on the differences and similarities of the internal arts would take several books. A book that I found informative on the subject is:

Answer 4

For the current big three internal styles, the great Sun Lutang summarized them best with, Xingyi is like a steel bullet, Bagua is like a spinning top, and Taichi is like a bouncy ball. Each has some elements from the other two yet remain distinct in flavor and taste. On surface, Xingyi looks to be the most direct of the three with "straight in and straight out" approach to enemies, Bagua has you running around an opponent and discovering different angles of attach, and Taichi is ever slightly more defensive with more emphasis on yielding and the reuse of an opponent’s energy. At higher levels, you’ll discover that they are actually not all that unalike in principle.

Dacheng/Yi Quan/I Chuan is a newer system with emphasis on static and moving stance training plus free flow forms. To some, it is a distillation of other older martial arts, especially of Xingyi, serving only the best to its practitioners. To others, it’s a simpler training system for effective combat and a healthy exercise than the older systems.

Liu He Ba Fa/Water Fist is a newer system with elements of all three older internal systems. Widely regarded to be the fourth best internal style in Chinese martial arts (This belief probably stemmed from the fact that the style’s creator wasn’t ‘invincible’ like the elders of the other styles.)

Meihua/Plum Flower is a very old style that defies internal/external categorization. The strikes are hard like Xingyi yet can flow like Taichi while moving like Bagua. Of course, it also contains elements of external styles. If you think a good teacher of the internal styles above is hard to find, good luck trying to find a Plum Flower one.

There are a few even more obscure internal systems like Liangyi, Kunlun, Xiaoyao, etc., but I doubt you’ll find anyone that can teach them properly outside of China.

And for the record, Taichi isn’t about just doing the form and push hands. The Yang style that I practice has form, stance work, conditioning, striking, locks, traps, throws, push hands and sparring. Like any other style, you can’t master Taichi in solidarity without a partner.

Answer 5

Sifu Wing Lam is a great source of knowledge for both external and internal styles and has lots of videos of him and others including Shaolin Monks instructing or demonstrating.

Of course, direct study under an instructor of his caliber is best but you can actually learn a lot from videos if you pay attention and focus. We often had visiting students who were in his correspondence program that had learned pretty well from the videos.

I studied Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Sun Taijiquan, Xingyi, and Bagua with Sifu WIng Lam for over 12 years and only stopped because of a hip injury. I also did a study tour in Shaolin, China lead by Sifu Wing Lam and taught by the Shaolin Monks. They really are amazingly good at both external and internal styles.