"America was never a Christian nation"... are you sure?

Question

Secularists like to argue that America from its founding era was never a "Christian nation"...

But if Christian influence on abortion, marriage, prayer in schools, religious expression by government officials in public office, religious symbols in public buildings, tax-supported religiously-based public efforts, etc. is all it takes for secularists to declare the US is becoming a "theocracy"---

WHY then, do these same secularists not admit that America from its very beginning was ALSO a "theocracy" -- when abortion and gay "marriage" would have been unthinkable -- when prayer in schools was more than just a reality, when overt and unabashed religious expression by government officials in public office took place, when religious symbols in public buildings was commonplace, and where state-level governments even used tax dollars to purchase bibles for students?

Can anyone explain the apparent duplicity in that?

I don't think this is an unreasonable question! Christians are often castigated for daring to interfere in their own government for their mistake of actually being a Christian! The hyped-up fear is that somehow greater Christian influence in social policy would amount to a threat to Democracy, but I find this very odd since it was amid this very Christian background that American Democracy itself was birthed and made possible! It would not be unreasonable to conclude, therefore that the greater threat to Democracy are those who would try to rewrite history to eliminate that influence.

Guys, whether or not America is or ever was a "Christian Nation" is a matter entirely seperate from the point I'm raising here. Rather, the question I present sheds light on this egregiously excessive notion that America is becoming a "theocracy". One would have to really stretch any sign of religious presence to form that kind of conclusion. I merely point out how methods of analysis are suddenly very minimalist when surveying the historical landscape for comparable signs of religious influence in the founding communities of early America. And since it's obvious that early America had much more of religious influence in government and popular culture, why doesn't the secularist's own reasoning (if they indeed think America is becoming a theocracy) carry them to the conclusion that therefore America must have began as a theocracy?

We haven't heard anyone really address that particular issue just yet, but I'm open to correction. Just e-mail me if you think you have a better answer.

Answer 1

You fail to see the differences here. First of all, America, the country, was not a christian nation. Before the birth of the nation, some of the colonies bordered on theocratic: Puritan Massachusetts for example. The framers of the constitution made it a point to strive for the seperation of church and state thru the 2nd ammendment.

Abortion and gay marriage were unthinkable in colonial America. The church, even though seperate, still played a major part in the lives of people. It was also unthinkable for the average person to admit to atheism, or agnosticism. The christian faith has changed to follow contemporary thought.

The things you mention about gov't officials openly practicing religious expression is the result of there being a christian majority. As more people began to express their beliefs publicly, whether it was Judaism or atheism, the numbers of those displays began to diminish. Regardless of whether christianity or atheism is the majority (hypothetically), according to the tenants of democracy, that majority is obligated to protect the rights of the minority.

You're free to believe what you wish, but if you're going to do it with tax dollars, you'd better be prepared to either represent EVERYONE, or just leave the faith out of the gov't.

Even Jesus believed in the seperation, evidenced by the statement, "Render unto Ceasar those things that are Ceasars".

Answer 2

America was not a theocracy.... some of the States were. But America as a whole was not.... that's why the Europeans came here... to get away from the Church running the Gov't. The Founding Fathers themselves wrote personal letters and memoirs concerning that very thing. So why would they establish it as such?

Overt and unabashed religious expression by Gov't officials..... So long as it was ONLY Christian. Why is it so unfair to the Christians when other religions want the same freedoms? I guess you don't see us as equals based on religion. And, sorry, but Abortion and Gay Marriage are issues within ALL religions... not just yours. I'm not sure where you get the idea that all of this originated with a 2000 yr old religion... these were issues before then.... and if you're going to say it was all based on the Bible... then it is Jewish Standards we are going by..... Not Christian. Christianity is a branch off of Judaism... Christianity is not an original, unique religion by any means.

Now again, why is it that these religious freedoms you speak about, it only shows how upset you are that Christianity can't do it the same way it used to... and not say anything about equality in a Secular Gov't.

And I ask that you do one search.... Look up Treaty of Tripoli.

Answer 3

Where do the founding fathers talk about abortion or gay marriage as part of government policy? Where do they talk about prayer in schools? Where do they even set up a public school system to have prayer in? Where are all these contemporary Christian values found in the constitution?

There are, however, many places where the founding fathers state America is not a Christian nation. The most blatant is the Treaty of Tripoli which states, "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." This treaty was ratified by Congress, and any treaty ratified by Congress is law.

As far as the "theocracy" question, the Constitution is in no way based on the bible. Which amendment is it that doesn't allow the worship of any other god than the Christian god? Which amendment extorts people to honor their mother and father? Which amendment warns against taking the lord's name in vain? Which amendment condemns the eating of shellfish as an abomination? Which amendment states that we are a Christian nation and anyone who is not a Christian must leave?

Of course, as a secularist, I don't necessarily think our government is becoming a theocracy, though there are certainly those in Congress who are working towards that.

As far as religious symbols in public buildings go, where is the cross on top of Congress? Where are all these symbols? It's much easier to find Freemason symbolism in the architecture of the capital than it is to find Christian symbolism.

Oh, and as far as money goes, the original marking was not "In God We Trust." That was added in 1956. In fact, the original slogan was "Mind Your Business," penned by Benjamin Franklin. I rather like that one.

Answer 4

No duplicity, just misperception.
It's funny that you never hear on the Christian media the fact that the words "Under God" were added in the 1950's to the pledge of alliegance. They would like to have us believe that it's been there since the beginning.

This country was founded by a number of men (and women) and quite a few of them weren't Christian. Some were Unitarian, some Deists, some athiest. Certainly the latter wouldn't have refrained from disagreeing vehemently with an attempt to establish a theocracy. The silence alone from these men speaks to the idea that this was NOT a theocracy. Certainly they wouldn't have established purposefully a government that would in essence outlaw or forbid the teaching of their philosophy in schools.

Answer 5

usa of america replace into not a theocracy.... many of the States have been. yet usa of america as an entire replace into not.... it rather is why the Europeans got here here... to get far off from the Church working the Gov't. The Founding Fathers themselves wrote own letters and memoirs related to that very venture. So why might they set up it as such? Overt and unabashed religious expression via Gov't officers..... see you later because it replace into only Christian. Why is it so unfair to the Christians while different religions choose a similar freedoms? i assume you do not see us as equals consistent with faith. And, sorry, yet Abortion and gay Marriage are subject concerns interior ALL religions... not only yours. i'm uncertain the place you get the thought that each and every person of this originated with a 2000 12 months previous faith... those have been subject concerns in the previous then.... and if you are going to declare it replace into all based on the Bible... then that's Jewish standards we are going via..... not Christian. Christianity is a branch off of Judaism... Christianity isn't an unique, unique faith via any potential. Now returned, why is it that those religious freedoms you talk approximately, it only exhibits how upset you're that Christianity can not do it a similar way it used to... and not say something approximately equality in a mundane Gov't. and that i ask which you do one seek.... seem up Treaty of Tripoli.

Answer 6

They are full of u know what!! the first settlements were to escape religious persecution. If they were atheist in those days they were for sure closet agnostics. Not until the gov. paid for the abortions did any political group get together or even care on these issues. I do agree that the US is becoming a theocracy. The more things change the more they stay the same. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. My opinion is this is how they get a foothold and fight for changes.

Answer 7

America was founded upon the idea that Chrisitian principles should be the backbone of a secular government, which would make America a Christian nation. The founding fathers never intended to have a theocracy, that is, a nation ran by God, like Israel was in Old Testament times. Secularum, or "outside the church", where secular comes from, is not a bad thing, as long as religion was behind it. As George Washington said in his farewell speech, in effect, that if America was to lose its Christianity, then America would indeed be lost. And here we are!

Answer 8

Well states could do what they wanted,unless their own state constitutions disallowed it. And most schools were church run at the time so the argument would be mute,the vast majority of people got little if any formal education,and if they did it was in an environment of their parents choosing. Many simply do not want it forced upon their children,and since they are forced to send their children to the states schools then they have no choice but to fight the state allowing others religions being forced on their children. Why does it have to be in school? That's really the question,why can't the christian community use their own time to brainwash their own children and leave the raising of other peoples children to them. Religious teaching does not need to be in school unless it's a religious school,if you want religion taught in your childrens school then send them to the thousands of tax exempt religious indoctrination centers jokingly referred to as schools all over the US. Just as any Muslim can send his children to the local Future Terrorists of America school that they start if he wants to. You can always teach your children your religion at home and in church,why poison my childs mind with that filth as well?

Answer 9

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."

-Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782)

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

Answer 10

US was and is a Christian nation in the sence of general values,
but unlike Europe no church is viewed as legally established official state church (as in getting tax money, directly interfering in politics).

Secularists probably stress the second part, you concentrate on first