Just how unscholarly is JW research? Have JWs heard of scholastic integrity?

Question

Many Jehovah’s Witness try to prove that the only people who will go to heaven will literally number 144,000 by quoting Prof. Thomas, The Master’s Seminary, US, and a Dr. Bullinger (who’s dead). The Prof. recently responded:

“Your JW friend has clearly taken what I wrote in my Revelation commentary out of its context. Yes, I do understand the 144,000 to be a literal number of witnesses during Daniel's future seventieth week, but they are witnesses on earth, not in heaven as he takes them to be. Nowhere do I endorse his heretical theory that they will "rule from heaven with Christ over a paradise earth." If he reads the whole commentary carefully, he will understand my position... Your friend is reading into my quotation a meaning that is unbiblical, one that arises from the heretical presuppositions of the JWs."

How can JWs quote the Prof's literal take on 144,000 without acknowledging he disagrees with every other aspect of the JW doctrine? Are they out to mislead?

JWs quoted Thomas on Yahoo! this year: Wink Winkleman & Franx. Other JW website entries: Brenda Martin and Bass. They all duplicated 6 paras from that Wt mag but did not credit their Society for that research, neither did any of them check for themselves. If they had, they would have known Prof Ts whole interpretation is anathema to the Socs bar one detail. If I said 'Saul of Tarsus persecuted Christians to death' but avoided adding that he converted to Christ and became a brilliant apostle, I could not be accused of lying or misquoting scripture, but my half-truth would distort truth. My intellectual dishonesty would be abhorrent to those who knew the whole story. Now, if JWs only quote the Bible for support, how come so many have spread Profs quote on the Net? Why do they claim to have scholastic support if they don't need it? Iamalsoti is right: don't trust opinions of men. Men opined that Prof T supports them. Well, if 5% support is all they can get, JWs should be worried.

Answer 1

as a Jehovah's witness, i have never heard of the men. to defend all our beliefs, we use God's word the bible. revelation 14 talks of 144000 being taken from the earth and ruling as judges and priests with Jesus. we do not base our teachings on the thoughts and oppinions of men as they are not to be trusted. only Jehovah's word can be trusted as accurate evidence of the things past, present and to come. we teach using God's word, and only lead people to an accurate knowlegde of God through the scriptures

Answer 2

Before I can attempt to answer this, What JW quoted Prof. Thomas?

What publication are you referring to?

As to 144000 being in heaven,

Rev 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Is Prof. Thomas saying the 144000 in Rev ch. 7 different from the 144000 in chapter 14?

The events in Revelation happen centuries after Daniel lived.

I'm confused.

-------Edit----------

Achtung_heiss, Thank you for providing the quote in question.

I can't see where the Society misquoted Prof. Thomas, or even misrepresented the Professor.

I do know that many scholars feel that it is the kiss of death to be quoted by Jehovah's Witnesses.

The article in discussion was 144000 being a literal number or not.

Is Professor Thomas now saying that this number is symbolic? No.

Did the article say that Professor endorsed the theory of ruling from heaven. No.

Their quote was very accurate and truthful.

I think it's interesting that the "final week of Daniel's prophecy fits the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry, and the 3 1/2 yrs that the apostles only went to the Jews and Samarians prior to Cornelius The first Gentle being baptized.

the Leader w/ an army destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D. / C.E.

Answer 3

You are a bit vague in your question. Who are the many JWs who quote this professor Thomas? You provide no proof for your claims.
Jehovah's Witnesses take all their "proof" from the scriptures. They have scripture to support all of their beliefs instead of blindly following the traditions of men.
My advice is to talk to JWs themselves instead of listening to biased heresay. You'll find they will always use a bible to witness.

And as for misleading or being mislead, I think you will find that, by claiming such things as you have done, you are the one that is doing that. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

Please see the latest tract being distributed worldwide by Jehovah's Witnesses for more details :)

Answer 4

Since JWs have been saying this for 120 years, I assume these men were born some time before 1860? They must hold the current record for long life.

Answer 5

Let me guess? Your a born again christian. I think you should get your facts right. Jw's don't quote Thomas, they quote the bible! What do you think your gonna do in heaven? Float about on clouds? Or you don't know, but it will be amazing and God will sort it out? The bible says that those who go to heaven will rule as 'Kings and Priests' with Jesus. Kings and priests over what? The Earth. Do these scriptures ring any bells with you? 'Thy kingdom come thy will be done on EARTH as it is in Heaven' Matthew 6;10 'The righteous themselves will possess the Earth and they will reside forever upon it' Psalms 37;29. Also ask yourself this? What was Jehovahs original purpose for the Earth?Genesis 1;28.(If Adam had not sinned, would he eventually have gone to heaven) Has he given up on this purpose? Isaiah 55;8-11. Please use the bible to answer your questions not empty philosophies of man. ps Revelation 14.3 says that the 144000 are BOUGHT from the earth,not witnesses on earth as your Prof. Thomas quotes. Please let the Bible answer your questions

Answer 6

The JWs are out to miss-lead, mostly they mis- lead themselves, True Christian's will not be taken in by them, The ordinary JWs not not allowed to study documents on their own they have to go and ask their questions to someone in higher office, then they are told the official line. The JWs have changed their bible so often and make their teaching worthless. This can all be verified if you were to read every copy of the 'Watch tower' They even predicted that the world would come to an end in 1984 The Lord Jesus said "future is not ours to know" So how come He told the JWs? I rest my case (for the moment)

Answer 7

This so-called "question" is built upon a demonstrably false premise. Jehovah's Witnesses believe as they do regarding the afterlife, heaven, and earth as a result of their study of the bible, and not based on the opinions of any man.

Specifically with regard to the Professor Thomas, he is quoted exactly once in any publication of Jehovah's Witnesses and that quote had nothing to do with Thomas' ideas about heaven. Instead, the context of the article clearly show that the discussion was limited to analyzing the literality of the number "144,000". Here is that excerpt from page 30 of "The Watchtower" of September 1, 2004:
"Various Bible scholars, past and
present, reached the same conclusion—
that is, the number [144,000] is literal.
For instance, in commenting on
Revelation 7:4, 9, ...Robert L. Thomas,
Jr., professor of New Testament at The
Master’s Seminary in the United States,
wrote: "The case for symbolism is
exegetically weak." He added: "It is a
definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with
the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken
symbolically, no number in the book
can be taken literally." -Revelation: An
Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1,
page 474.

This single reference to Thomas by Jehovah's Witnesses clearly restricts its discussion to the matter of whether the number at Revelation 7:4 is figurative. It would have been awkward and unwarranted for the article to have abandoned its focus to instead sidetrack regarding every difference between Thomas' beliefs and Jehovah's Witnesses'.


Jehovah's Witnesses understand the Scriptures to teach that exactly 144,000 humans will join Christ Jesus as kings and priests to administer God's Kingdom (which will soon replace all earthly governments).
(Daniel 2:44) God of heaven will set up a kingdom... It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite
(Revelation 14:1) Lamb [Jesus] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand
(Revelation 20:6) they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him

Over whom will they rule? Over the vast majority of mankind, most of whom will have been raised from the dead after Armageddon.
(John 11:23,24) Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

Hell is NOT someplace/something mankind needs to fear; there is no suffering in the grave. Sometime after the resurrection, death and "hell" will themselves be destroyed.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol ["hell"]
(Revelation 20:14) And death and Hades ["hell"] were hurled into the lake of fire


Almighty Jehovah God selects those few who have the heavenly calling. Each person "feels" his own hope and each person's hope remains unquestioned by his fellow Christians. Still the vast majority (literally more than 99.9%*) of Jehovah's Witnesses expect an EARTHLY hope, the same hope given to Adam and Eve.
(Genesis 1:28) God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill THE EARTH and subdue it [caps added]
(Genesis 2:17) You must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die [so never eating from that tree means never dying]

Learn more:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/10/1/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/10/1/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm

Answer 8

I had a flier on my door this weekend. It said if there were more JW's, the Holocaust wouldn't have happened. So yeah, scholastic integrity is out the window.

Answer 9

Exactly, thanks for such a clear description.